When do you step in?

[Sarah83]

Spencer can be a bit OTT with other dogs and I'm a bit lost as to how much I should be stepping in and removing him and how much I should be letting the other dog tell him to knock it off. I don't want to put other peoples dogs in the position where they feel they've got to get physical to protect themselves or get some peace but at the same time I don't want to be all panicky and stepping in when it's appropriate to let them tell him to sod off. Obviously I remove him if the other dog is uncomfortable with him or frightened of him (or I don't let him approach in the first place) but most of the dogs we meet seem well socialised and are willing to tell him to pack it in with a growl or air snap and then go right back to what they were doing. The other owners don't seem at all bothered by it, just see it as the dogs sorting themselves out. I do remove him if they tell him off and he doesn't take any notice and he does seem to be learning that if a dog grumbles at him it's time to back off but I'm not sure if I'm doing right

Any advice? Shadow and Wolf both learned from the well socialised dogs we met on a regular basis but I didn't know much about dog behaviour then.

[Nettle]

Thank you for asking because so many people need to know the answer. I know you are very responsible with Spen, so please take the following as general advice and not addressed specifically.


IMO step in long before the other dog owner can see 'anything' - ie as soon as he gets 'that look'.

Reason is that such dogs need to learn that if they don't show self-control, the fun stops (instead of 'the fun starts'). If they are let get really well into a bundle, then the rush of feelgood hormones is such a reward that they don't really care what happens next. And they horribly quickly become addicted to that hormone surge, so it becomes more and more difficult to derail them from their objective. They become progressively harder-hitting, too.

Also - other people don't keep their dogs to train random dogs, bouncy dogs can injure people (I am permanently lame thanks to a labrador that cannonned straight into my knees and certainly meant to - it was no accident) other dogs can become OTT because they feel the hormone surge too, and other dogs can be injured.

Most of all because other dogs may be fearful, reactive, unwell, pregnant - or natural fighters.

We cannot afford to let dogs find their own level this way, nor to let dogs teach other dogs lessons in manners. It's our job as owners to get in hard fast and early, so we don't raise thugs.

I know you inherited your thug but I have every confidence in your ability to unthug him.

[Maxy24]

I would read up on dog body language and take action as soon as you see the other dog showing signs of discomfort. As the owner of a dog who can be overwhelmed by pushy, forward dogs nothing bothers me more than owners who won't come get their dog when mine is trying to dodge him, climb up my leg, and I'm actively trying to walk me and my dog away. If owners were to wait until he finally showed his teeth or snapped at them we'd have a problem, I don't WANT my dog to be that upset by other dogs very often because it could make him have problems with other dogs. Plus sometimes after he finally snaps he has lost control and will keep going after the dog and so I am stuck trying to hold back my dog while pushing the other dog away, both trying to get at each other. So as soon as you notice the other dog trying to avoid yours (refusing to look at him, lifting a paw while looking away, stiffening, other repeated calming signals like lip licking, yawning, etc.) I'd come and remove him so the other dog doesn't get overly upset by the experience.

[Ari_RR]

I had a thug
A big strong fast overconfident super-annoying unneutered thug, with big teeth and deep growl, and desire to test and push the limits with every big male he saw in the vicinity.

Thank goodness someone invented harness! For months he was not allowed off leash!
But, like everything else, it passed.
So, if you feel he is getting OTT and you have to go into seclusion, looking for the dirtiest, wettest, remote trails, as far away from civilization as possible, going there before sunrise, when you are unlikely to meet anyone (that's exactly what I was doing) - rest assured, its not forever Things will get easier!

[Sarah83]

Cheers Nettle He's not actually jumping all over other dogs now, we've got that stopped thankfully! (Humans are another matter, they bloody encourage him ) He will bounce a few metres away from them, play bow, dart away, repeat in an effort to get them to play. Some will, others will tell him to knock it off. I just don't want to keep stepping in too soon and him ending up like Rupert, completely incapable of reading other dogs. He's not allowed to just approach random dogs, in fact it tends to be them coming to him since he's on a long line and in a sit by my side to give them space to pass. It tends to be the initial meeting where they have issues with him, not when they're actually playing. I think because he gets soooo excited at first but then calms down after he's been around them a few minutes.

Maxy, I can tell when a dog is uncomfortable and either remove Spen immediately or don't allow him to approach in the first place, easily done since I obey the leash law that's in force at the moment It's not Spen approaching them, it's them approaching him. My last dog was horrendous with other dogs and so many times I've been in the situation you describe. I do everything I can to prevent Spencer putting someone else in that position and if it ever did happen I'd be straight after him and apologising.

Ari, he's not OTT in that he's testing limits or getting growly, he's just OTT in that he's soooo excited and so desperately wants to play.

[emmabeth]

As Nettle said - when you can see hes getting that 'look; about him, before another owner has an issue, similar if someone elses dog looks uncomfortable but before the owner notices.

I would make a habit of stopping play and asking him to do something (simple, nothing hard!) before allowing him to play again, so that being asked to interrupt play is 'normal' and not something associated with things going wrong/anyone panicking or getting annoyed.

[ladybug1802]

This is interesting! So another question.....if your dog is too 'into' meeting that dog when you try to call him away that he doesnt liste, do you go and physically get him away? The reason I ask is because Dylan sometimes gets 'growly' with other dogs upon meeting...liuke Sarah I dont ever let him run up to random dogs....I alwayus either put him back on lead or have him to heel and ask him to sit and watch me while they pass. BUT....other owners dont seem to pay attention to this and let their dogs run over to me anyway. Or else if I meet another owner, then we let the dogs play....depending on the dog Dylan can sometimes get rather OTT in that he can get a bit growly and/or his head goes over their shoulders. On other occasions he plays nicely with the other dog, and on other occasions he just sniffs, says hello, and then loses interest. So when he does the head over shoulder thing I know I need to intervene before this stage, but often it is hard to get him to pay attention to me...shoudl I then get hold of him and remove him?

Also, its not always easy to see 'that look' that indicates he may get like this....I mean it is but not initially. I personally want to be able to get him to not focus on other dogs so much.....I often get him to sit while dogs on lead pass...anbd ask him to watch me...but he is very focused on the other dog and he sometimes tries to get over to them...not in an aggressive way, just in a "I must say helloooo!" way. Hows best to work on this?

Sorry to hijack this thread!

[Sarah83]

I would get hold of him and remove him personally Preferably before he gets to that stage but as you say sometimes that's easier said than done!

I get nothing like that from Spen (or haven't yet anyway) it's literally just the "oh my god, another dog, oh my god helloooooo! I love you! Play with me!" sort of thing he does when they first meet. Most of the time he gets growled or snapped it it's when they first meet and they seem to have the attitude of "for crying out loud stop bouncing around and let me bloody sniff you!" I'm working on getting him to stay calm when meeting other dogs and am actually trying to arrange to meet up with people so we can practise without having the other dog come trotting up regardless of how Spen is behaving.

[ClareMarsh]

I often get him to sit while dogs on lead pass...anbd ask him to watch me...but he is very focused on the other dog and he sometimes tries to get over to them...not in an aggressive way, just in a "I must say helloooo!" way. Hows best to work on this?

I'm sure this isn't the best way but what I did with Ted was practice this when he was on lead with dogs at a longer distance away (because he literally wanted to meet every dog on the planet at one point ). I shaped it by just waiting for him to remember I was there, even if the other dog had gone then clicked and treated. I just kept on doing and doing it and getting closer and closer until now I can get him to sit and look at me whilst another dog goes past us provided I am in between. So maybe clicker train it?

[ladybug1802]

Oh thats what I have been doing indeedy Clare! Basicaslly we have come on sooopo far with people...and thats what we have been doing with people basically....so been trying to do it with doggies too. Its harder with dogs isnt it as their owners just dont seem to care whether your dog is on lead or not!

Thanks tho...maybe I kjust need to be more vigilent and start further back from the doggies. Dylan most of the time does just want to play (much like Spencer!) but its not on all the time!!

[ClareMarsh]

It is difficult because a lot of people are ill informed or don't care. I have the reverse problem that Ted wants to meet every dog but more often than not is then out of his depth if the other dog wants to play chase etc. Thankfully I now know a good number of dogs that aren't interested in playing so he can hang out with them, and he isn't a saint himself, despite him doing a lovely greeting I had to stop him pestering Olive this morning, she's a very timid dog and more than one sniff is too much for her.

I think when we started this the other dog would be very far away and Ted would stare into the distance for ages whilst I hung about like a spare part I did it repeatedly as I was also looking for him to stay with me rather than go to say hello (he was on a long line back then) if he was off lead. I'm pretty convinced it was the clicker that made him realise what I was after though and once he knew that it wasn't too long before I didn't need the clicker any more (just as well as clicker, lead, treat etc ).

[bendog]

I'm sure this isn't the best way but what I did with Ted was practice this when he was on lead with dogs at a longer distance away (because he literally wanted to meet every dog on the planet at one point ). I shaped it by just waiting for him to remember I was there, even if the other dog had gone then clicked and treated. I just kept on doing and doing it and getting closer and closer until now I can get him to sit and look at me whilst another dog goes past us provided I am in between. So maybe clicker train it?

This is essentially what I am doing with Poppy. Because she is the same, and I clearly can't have her running the length of a football pitch to go and see a dog - especially when I cannot run the length of a football pitch fast enough to intervene if the dog is scared/uncomfortable/not friendly.

With her, she's friendly, but I do sense some nerves there still. Sarah - Pop does the same as Spence really. Runs up to a dog, lies flat on the floor, jumps up, darts off, then runs back, brief sniff of noses maybe, then away again. It usually ends up with her running around a dog in huge circles whilst the dog stands in the middle looking quite bemused by her. But she's so quick and darts about so much that it does seem to make some dogs uncomfortable. Though some she plays well with. I think what she really wants is to play chase, but she's also not entirely confident with dogs. If theres two or more dogs, she seems quite nervous and will hover around my legs, though still wanting to go and play, just not really confident enough to.

If we are on a footpath and we see a dog, I put her on lead as soon as I see it so she can't charge over - then, if it is friendly (off lead, approaches us, or if I shout to the owner is it ok to let her go say hello) then I'll let her off again when we get nearer. If we are in the park and we see lots of dogs, she stays on lead since theres usually a mix of on and off lead dogs on the same patch of park and I can't make her only say hello to the off lead ones, she'd want to meet them all. This is mainly where we practise focussing on me rather than the dog, usually she will want to bark and pull, when that doesn't work she just stands and watches, eventually she'll sit down but still ignoring me, then finally she'll turn and look at me, or come and sit at my feet and gets rewarded for it. I'm hoping that continuing this means she'll learn to not focus so much on other dogs. If a dog has a ball/is playing fetch, then she isn't allowed over either.

With Ben she's a little sod and jumps on him, grabs his legs/tail, and is generally a pain in the backside. I limit this as much as I can.

[Ari_RR]

Good things are good in moderations, and I would caution against overreacting, and becoming a panicy mom running over with a leash In her hand and a worried face every time he sees a dog.
He is OTT excited to play with other dogs... "OMG A Dog!! Let's play!! Let's play!!"
If you start body blocking him and removing him at every sign of excitement to see a dog - he may end up simply associating dogs with mommy's strange behavior... And no fun.

I went from one extreme ("dogs are dogs, if some can't handle my big bully - its their problem") to the other extreme ("there may be a dog behind the corner! Let's turn around and hide in the bush"). If I were to do this again, i would be in the middle somewhere, but it needs experience and ability to read the other dog and project his reaction to yours - is he frightened, is he submissive, is he growling and ready to snap, is he dealing with insecurity issues, is he sick, in training and so on.. He may be any or all of those things, in which case step in before any interaction if your boy is OTT.
But he may just be another active dog, just happy as hell to see Spencer and play with him - then I would let them play.

And yeah - humans need to be evaluated too.

[Nettle]

I don't have reactive dogs, but I still evaluate every approaching dog/owner/combo as they approach. It's amazing how dogs telegraph information from a long way away and as for owners....pretty easy once you get your eye in over who can cope, who doesn't see they should and who is in lalaland.

As we approach, my dogs go to the side furthest away from the approachers, while I watch the other dog/s and owner. By the time we are close enough, I have a pretty good idea of what will happen if the dogs interact and so my greeting will be 'okay if they meet?' or 'could you call your dog please, or 'this one's rather nervous' (no I'm not" - "shaddup and stay at heel, I know what I'm doing" ) and they greet or get taken on a wide berth if I haven't taken avoiding tactics already.

I'm not spoiling their fun, being overprotective or ruining their social lives - I AM taking charge of every single interaction they have with other dogs.

This is in good part why I still don't have reactive dogs

[runlikethewind]

Hi

I am the same as Nettle. My dogs generally arc around dogs to avoid or to assess first. I avoid dogs who do the following:

- dogs who crouch down (usually means they are worried or unsure and will react defensively or run off, or jump about like to loons to play and you don't know which until you are upon them)
- dogs who stand like statues as you walk towards them
- dogs who stalk forwards with their heads low
- dogs who stand and bark. My dogs just look at them and yawn sometimes - it's quite funny but not for the dog barking of course. Why don't their owners help them?

None of these are normal approaches. Would you agree? I've realised it is really best to avoid them then risk a bad experience so like Nettle, I am always reading body language to see what's what. My lad is amazing with dogs though generally doing all these things and nonchalantly walks around them - he doesn't really need any help so sometimes he will meet these dogs before my girl and I are there.

I like the dogs who see dogs and carry on their business, do an arc themselves or sniff about , walking relaxed towards each other, not running or stalking- good doggie communication. It relaxes the situation for everyone.

I like ClareMarsh's method of allowing her dog to watch and assess the situation and when her dog is 'done' she rewards the refocus back on her. Having used a lot of LAT, I think it as a good thing to point dogs out, or to reward the dog looking at the other dogs - it's classical conditioning. I like also BAT because it teaches dogs to disengage after they have assessed a situation. It's also probably more natural than LAT because unfortunately with LAT, both of you are interesting to outsiders and this attracts the dogs and the owners to come closer. It all depends on the situation and circumstance.

I read a lot about people trying or using Watch mes (anchoring the dog to the person's eyes) and calling their dogs back to put them on lead but my view (others can disagree), you are asking a dog to Watch you all the while there is something else he needs to keep an eye on. The dog is conflicted and he can fail. I think once a dog is allowed to look at dogs, and rewarded for it, there is a good association being built up there, distance reduces and they become no big deal and the dog will then naturally start to refocus on the owner. I think putting a dog on a lead sets up a not-so-positive association - ie dog see dogs, owner calls me back and I go straight back on a lead. Nothing is really being learnt there. However, I appreciate I only have my own experience to go by and I am not having to handle anybody else's dogs here. I only know my own.

I really reward the times my girl meets and greets nicely - I don't let those moments pass. After she has finished greeting (at the cut off) I give him a marker and play or treat. Then we get more of that. It's working with my girl who can be nervous around dogs (but is is inquisitive and wants to meet them so I always try to reinforce the really good greetings) If a dog is hanging about too long and is being irritating and if I see her at that still moment before she is about to give a little snap (collie b*tch police style...LOL , I try to quickly get a kissy noise/diversion tactic and reward her for coming away or block the dog so she doesn't rehearse this snapping business.

Irritating dogs who have no connection to their owner and who harass other dogs and don't get the distance increasing signals normal dogs give, I just stand in front of them and body block them or push them them away. You have to be quite fast for this though. I help my lad out like this too when he gets hassled. We are getting more and more of the good stuff and less and less of the reactive stuff because a) they know I will help out and b) the girl has learnt more and more the skill of good greetings with well mannered dogs.