When do you step in?

[ladybug1802]

Thats very interesting!

One thing though....I dont think its necessarily 'normal' for dogs to see dogs and ignore them? Most dogs would want to say hello or at least pay attention to them...and isnt that more normal social doggy behaviour? I think its a different thing for the owner to be able to stop the dog zooming over to the other dog, due to training etc, but is it really normal for dogs to just not be interested in other dogs?

[runlikethewind]

Yes I agree. All dogs, even if they look like they are ignoring, have certainly clocked the other dog. I think the way I see it is if the dog has lots of chances to meet other dogs and everything is set up well or rewarded well, that dog finds other dogs less exciting and more normal if you see what I mean. I think dogs who zoom over and rush at other dogs have different intentions - over boisterous play, intimidation etc etc, fear aggression. It's difficult I know what you are saying and all you can do is concentrate on your own dog.

[ladybug1802]

Very true! With Dylan it seems to depend on the other dog...although I have been working recently that when a god does zoom over to him (I never let him zoom over to other dogs) I use the clicker to reward calm behaviour round the other dog (as opposed to him getting over rambunctious!!) and this morning we were walking along down by the river, and a couple were walking at the far end of the field behind me. So I heard a noise behind me and they had let their little dog run over and run along with me and Dylan....and they were miles away! Dylan had a sniff, said hello, then I said "lets go" and he ran away from the dog over to me!

[minkee]

Scout will ignore other dogs, mostly - they're just way down on the list below her ball / playing with me. She obviously does know they're there - sometimes they're even sniffing round her bum and she's still ignoring them incase the ball gets thrown! It doesn't - I don't throw balls infront of other dogs so as not to wind them up or lead them into temptation.

Generally I will keep her attention on me and move past unless I see a particularly likely looking suspect and then I'll send Scout off to go meet / play. Oftentimes we'll walk on the beach, so there's plenty of space to avoid if need be, and you can read dogs and their owners both from a mile off. If the other dog gets over excited / too boisterous / wants to follow us instead of their owner I get Scout to come and sit by me and we both act really boring and the other dog usually soon gives up and looks for something more exciting to jump at.

[bendog]

Sounds ideal minkee! I so wish pop was toy motivated, even food is boring on walks. Ben does love his ball, but he'll also ignore it, drop it somewhere if there's stuff to sniff, he's not as obsessed as scout!

Runlikethewind, my pup is one you would avoid, she head down stalks dogs, then charges, then lies flat when she gets there before jumping around --- however, if everyone was like you and avoided her then how is she ever supposed to get used to dogs and learn to greet nicely. I am always careful about which digs she meets, she is on lead unless the other owner says it is ok to let her off and play with their dog, and if the dog seems ok with it. On lead I am rewarding whenever she manages to see a dog and focus on me as claremarsh did with ted, but I feel she has to meet some dogs, ideally calm ones like your boy, or else her manners will never improve - all I wi have taught her is to ignore dogs and she won't know what to do if one comes over to greet. So I also reward all meetings with dogs unless she's been really rude or pushy with them, because although she wants to play she's still a bit nervous too and I want her to realise dogs are ok whilst also learning how to greet nicely. And we can't do that by avoiding all dogs, nor can we if all owners avoid us!!

[Sarah83]

I'm the same, I don't want to stop Spencer meeting all dogs, just to teach him to greet calmly and politely instead of going rushing in with a "hi, how are you, you're my new best friend, let's play!" sort of thing. I don't mind if people do want to avoid us though, not all dogs are suitable for Spencer to meet and not everyone wants their dog to be used to teach an over exuberant young dog manners. He can ignore other dogs as they pass at a bit of a distance and didn't go haring off to the end of the long line when he spotted one about 20 metres away yesterday. And today he's played very nicely with a 5 month old Lab, it's the initial meeting we really need to work on. And not barking at dogs who pass close by but don't stop for a mutual sniff.

[JudyN]

I think it's an area where you really have to be aware of dog body language and interactions, and know how your dog is likely to behave. You have to be watching minutely the angle of approach, what the tail's doing, judging the size/weight/breed/attitude of the other dog, and assessing the owner, plus taking into account whether it's just one dog or more. You also have to consider how easily you can get your dog back if it doesn't go as you expect. You can't even go by what the other owner says - I meet owners of small dogs who are happy if Jasper throws paws at them while they roll over and squeal, or if he has a snark at them for sniffing his undercarriage, because 'they have to learn', and large ones who say their dog just wants to play, assume Jasper can cope with a young boxer stuffed full of attitude, and think that he 'needs to learn to stand up for himself'

[jacksdad]

Runlikethewind, my pup is one you would avoid, she head down stalks dogs, then charges, then lies flat when she gets there before jumping around --- however, if everyone was like you and avoided her then how is she ever supposed to get used to dogs and learn to greet nicely. I am always careful about which digs she meets, she is on lead unless the other owner says it is ok to let her off and play with their dog, and if the dog seems ok with it. On lead I am rewarding whenever she manages to see a dog and focus on me as claremarsh did with ted, but I feel she has to meet some dogs, ideally calm ones like your boy, or else her manners will never improve - all I wi have taught her is to ignore dogs and she won't know what to do if one comes over to greet. So I also reward all meetings with dogs unless she's been really rude or pushy with them, because although she wants to play she's still a bit nervous too and I want her to realise dogs are ok whilst also learning how to greet nicely. And we can't do that by avoiding all dogs, nor can we if all owners avoid us!!

The flip side....it's not the job of random/unknown dogs to teach your dog how to be a dog. There are WAY to many risks in this. A worst case is someone who thinks their dog is ok, but isn't, says yes to a meet and greet only to have their dog savagely attack your's because your dogs behavior is too much or too scary for it.

If your at this stage, it's tricky and you need to VERY carefully screen the other dogs. I would still urge teaching your dog a HIGHLY rewarding alternate behavior for dealing with most dogs you randomly encounter while out on walks. Then work to find a really well adjusted, mature, calm, fearless dog and someone who can guide you to work on well mannered meet and greets.

it's important to keep in mind that dogs that fear other dogs or dogs that just have less than ideal social manners, the wrong dog in a meet/greet can undo ALL your work in a fraction of a second. Yes, you risk "stalling" your dog's social progress by not allowing your dog to say "hi" to many of the dogs you encounter, but that is MUCH better than undoing and/or undoing AND making worse due to allowing your dog and some random dog you know nothing about meet and greet and things go horribly wrong.

Every dog / dog encounter I screwed up on before I really understood the stakes still haunts us to this day 2 plus years later. Dogs that I allowed Jack to meet/greet when I shouldn't have, he is still VERY reactive to. and even though that number is now in single digits, we are talking probably about a half a dozen dogs, the reaction is still enough to set the tone for the rest of the day. The screw ups were as much Jack wasn't ready to meet and greet any dog at that time as it was letting him meet and greet the wrong dog.

what's that saying about first impressions?

[runlikethewind]

Hi Bendog

I think a pup doing this and an adult dog doing this are different. Would anyone agree?

I wouldn't walk in an arc to avoid a pup mucking about like that. Both my dogs engage with pups, even if they are bouncy or timid. I do agree it doesn't help your cause if everyone avoided you. I felt bad when you said that Are there any instances where your pup does anything differently (maybe a confident walk to butt sniff, just something different to her normal approach). You could massively reward that as a appropriate approach - either the approach itself or when the pup is 'done'. I think keep the dog actively engaged with the other dog and yourself keeps them up off the ground as well and moving forward as well.

[ClareMarsh]

I think there's a couple of parts to this

1. Ted needs to understand that I decide who he gets to greet. In order to achieve this I've avoided A LOT of dogs which he hasn't even seen (so that he doesn't think that I am really mean ), stuck with long distances to start with when we weren't going to greet and selected dogs he had met before/were carefully screened by me to allow him to greet. We have now got to the point where I have a lot more control in this area, it's still a work in progress but it's no longer as much of a military operation Even so there are still some encounters that I don't manage to avoid etc

2. Greeting nicely and interacting nicely. I've tried to do this with dogs that I know, so for example we know a Keeshond who will put up with anything, I therefore step in when Ted jumps up (rarely does this now), pesters too much etc. I do think that Ted now listens to me more (not all the time he is still young) when interacting with dogs so I think he is getting that I have some level of control When I compare him to other dogs his age he is much calmer around dogs but I think this is a mix of his temperament and my training.

To find these dogs to work with I think the best way is to go to the same place at the same time each day so you can watch other dogs first, get to know owners, dogs can meet on lead etc etc. There are several dogs I see most days that I send Ted on to greet (and bless him he keeps looking back to see if he can run on) and equally there are those I see that we have met before that we immediately get as far away as we need to to avoid them Indeed I would say locally the "good" dog owners all know each other and we pass on info and tell each other which new dogs are ok and which aren't. This is probably what you need to try to find Bendog, I know it's hard as you've moved, but if you can find this then you will likely get much better opportunities for Pops.

We do practice a lot of avoidance but we probably see 50 or so dogs a day when we're in London. Dogs that run up to us in a rude manner are sent back by me, polite dogs I give Ted some space. I also limit his dog encounters each day, especially with new dogs as the more he meets the more exciting it gets, the less he listens to me and so on. If we see a dog that he interacts nicely with (and I don't think the owner minds) we will make an effort to approach them, so I am actively seeking out dogs so that Ted knows I will find him nice dogs to say hello to.

I've rambled but I think I'm saying get in with the locals and if in doubt avoid

I think a pup doing this and an adult dog doing this are different. Would anyone agree?

I think it depends on your own dog, their confidence etc. Some dogs are confident enough to deal with pups, and certainly I was lucky enough to meet a few with Ted who were great with him. But I would say for a fearful/under confident dog a puppy is even worse than an adult dog as they don't respond to normal dog body language and are so fast and jumpy. (For me Ted is too small for anything other than a tiny puppy to meet as he could very easily get hurt.)

[WufWuf]

But I would say for a fearful/under confident dog a puppy is even worse than an adult dog as they don't respond to normal dog body language and are so fast and jumpy.

Honey is worse with puppies and I don't let her meet any these days as I don't think it's fair on the pup to have her snark at them, it's also not good for her as she can be a bully with "weaker" dogs.

I don't tend to let her meet any dogs over a certain size now and try to limit the dogs she meets to those she already knows. I've only just realised that she can actually be around a much larger amount of dogs then I give her credit for. I walk her in the same area a good fews days of the week as I now know most of the dogs and how they will act so I know who to avoid. She's much more interested in people and will ignore lots of dogs that she has met before, without any issue - I would guess that there's maybe 20 dogs that she can see with no problems (not at the same time or even in the same week ) but I think that's pretty great from a dog who used to freak at anything that might be a dog.

[bendog]

The flip side....it's not the job of random/unknown dogs to teach your dog how to be a dog. There are WAY to many risks in this. A worst case is someone who thinks their dog is ok, but isn't, says yes to a meet and greet only to have their dog savagely attack your's because your dogs behavior is too much or too scary for it.

Absolutely. We don't just approach any dog, we avoid the majority because a) I have a reactive dog myself and he can't deal with boisterous dogs, though he can now wait calmly by my side whilst the pup is allowed to greet a calm dog, and he even greeted a dog himself politely the other day, and b) the other dog is on lead/playing ball/fearful so we steer clear. I have never let it get to the point that a dog has had to snap at her, because the only time she ever greets a dog off lead it's a dog that actually wants to play with her, or, is calm and confident enough to just ignore her being silly and zoomy. Even if the owner is ok about it, if I notice the dog starting to get irritated, or nervous then we move on as quickly as we can. My ideal scenario is to get her recall to the point that I can recall her away from another dog, either before she goes charging over to it (at the moment she is on lead the vast majority of the time to prevent her charging over to dogs) or after she's had a quick polite greet or play. Since if she does meet a dog off lead she will follow me eventually if I walk away - but won't come to me when I call her. At the moment her recall is awful - she is interested in everything except me, and all my treats and toys and running around has no effect whatsoever - dogs, ducks, sniffing grass, rolling in dead things and eating poo are all way more interesting. Only thing that will bring her running is if I hide, but even then, she only comes when she realises she can't see me anymore! If she knows where I am she doesn't see the point in coming over. She's 11 months old, and I'm hoping she'll grow out of it, up until a month or two ago her recall was actually very good.

Then work to find a really well adjusted, mature, calm, fearless dog and someone who can guide you to work on well mannered meet and greets..

Where do I find this perfect dog? Some days we see no dogs at all, other days we might see 10, and of those 10 I'd only let her greet perhaps 1 or 2 if any. None of my friends have dogs (except one who has just got a puppy), nor do my family except for my cousins crazy collies who now have to be muzzled on walks and so aren't suitable for meet and greets.

. Ted needs to understand that I decide who he gets to greet. In order to achieve this I've avoided A LOT of dogs which he hasn't even seen (so that he doesn't think that I am really mean ), stuck with long distances to start with when we weren't going to greet and selected dogs he had met before/were carefully screened by me to allow him to greet. We have now got to the point where I have a lot more control in this area, it's still a work in progress but it's no longer as much of a military operation Even so there are still some encounters that I don't manage to avoid etc

We are still at the military operation stage We do stay at long distances and reward for focusing on me, since she gets very fixated on the other dog. We do similar with ducks and cats as well.

To find these dogs to work with I think the best way is to go to the same place at the same time each day so you can watch other dogs first, get to know owners, dogs can meet on lead etc etc. There are several dogs I see most days that I send Ted on to greet (and bless him he keeps looking back to see if he can run on) and equally there are those I see that we have met before that we immediately get as far away as we need to to avoid them Indeed I would say locally the "good" dog owners all know each other and we pass on info and tell each other which new dogs are ok and which aren't. This is probably what you need to try to find Bendog, I know it's hard as you've moved, but if you can find this then you will likely get much better opportunities for Pops.

We try to vary walks to find something for everyone, so sometimes we go up to the nature reserve, other times to the woods, or to the fields etc. But most mornings we go to the park or rugby field at around the same time. The rugby field we have to ourselves 99% of the time, occasionally theres a man with a spaniel there, his spaniel is fine, but fairly elderly, and doesn't particularly want Pop running around her when she's trying to play with her ball, so we tend to avoid them. In the park there might be a few dogs we see fairly often, but all of them are on lead, - except for an occasional border collie or two who are totally ball obsessed, so again, we avoid these since I don't know if the collies guard their ball or not and I don't want to risk finding out! We don't see the same dogs every day. Some dogs I've got to recognise because we see them fairly often, but we can go weeks without seeing them. This morning for example we saw two dogs, both on lead, and neither that I had seen before. Pop had a fantastic time with a greyhound once, but despite walking at roughly the same time for weeks afterwards we never saw it again.

Sometimes the dogs themselves are nice enough, but people round here don't tend to want to sit around and watch their dogs play so theres no standing around and chatting. It's quick sniff and then "Come on". Also the park isn't enclosed, and near a busy road, so if there is a dog is too near the road I can't risk letting her go and play and get zoomy and not look where she's going. Other times where we walk there are horses, or sheep and so again, I can't let her off lead to greet/play if we are too close to the horses field. Up on the nature reserve, or in the woods, people are more friendly and relaxed, but we can only get there once a week or so, and we might not meet any dogs when we do go!

On lead we have almost eliminated the lunging and barking at dogs she wants to meet, I let them meet on lead, sniff noses and bums and then encourage her to move on before the play bowing and silliness starts, she gets rewarded everytime after the greeting, and I also reward whenever we walk past a dog on lead that she can't greet if she stays reasonably close and doesn't pull to go over to it too much.

It's a fine line, because she loves dogs, but is also still a bit nervous, especially with two dogs together, and I think that some of the leaping about is nerves. I'd like her to be confident with dogs, which may in the long run mean learning to ignore them, but at the moment means we have to meet some to build her confidence up. This is not the same as with my reactive dog who is scared stiff of dogs, and he is never asked to interact with other dogs at all if he doesn't want to - standing near to a dog and ignoring it is fine by me!

I think a pup doing this and an adult dog doing this are different. Would anyone agree?

Yep, see your point, but don't necessarily agree. Yes, pups need to learn manners and can be excused some behaviour due to simply not knowing any better, but adult dogs may have been undersocialised or simply not taught and they will still need to learn somehow that rude, boisterous play is not allowed, and they can also only learn this by meeting confident calm dogs. Adult dogs whose owners are irresponsible, don't care or realise that their dog is being rude, or who allow their dogs to bully other dogs are a different matter, and I would avoid these!

I also agree that puppies are scary to many dogs, and this is why I'm extra careful with choosing dogs I let mine meet that will join in with her games (mostly just chase, no rough play), or who are mature and confident enough to give her that "oh you are so silly, it's not even worth bothering with you", rather than ones who will be made nervous or get p*ssed off with her.

Anyway - Sarah, sorry for hijacking your thread!

[ladybug1802]

I think the problem is it dependsa where you live as to whether you can guarantee you can go to the same place each day and see the same people. Where I live we dont really have 'parks' as we have tonnes of walks in woodlands, across fields etc and there is no shortage of choice....so you dont really get the same people doing the same walk. I do sometimes see the same people at places...but I wont have seen them for a couple of months or so. The one park area we have isnt big enough or exciting enough for a walk, but I do go there sometimes mainly for my 'people training' with Dylan (ie to walk past people and reward)....but you sometimes seea couple of dogs maybe....other times none!

[ClareMarsh]

I want to come and live by you ladybug, that sounds idyllic

[ladybug1802]

I want to come and live by you ladybug, that sounds idyllic

Yes its not bad Clare! At the end of my road is a vineyard as well which is lovely for walking too! We are definitely spoilt for walking where I live....I often stop and look at the scenery and try not to take it for granted!

On the down side it is harder to find people and dogs separately for training purposes!