I know; this is not the place to get encouragement for using an e-collar. I could use sound advice, but don't lecture me
I have been walking the biggest Golden Retriever I have ever seen twice a week for almost 3 years now. My Chihuahua and I often house sit for him for two weeks at a time when the owners travel, which they do a lot. He is now 4 years old and weighs 90 pounds (no fat) -only 15 pounds less that I do.
This dog is nothing like other Golden Retrievers I have known. He's friendly, alright, but he is also willful, lively, pushy, demanding. Even with an Easy Walker harness, he is difficult to walk and he can snap the leash right out of my hand if he catches me off guard as he has done a few times. Once, he bolted on a gravel path and I landed on my face which got scratched up and swollen. The other day he bolted after a squirrel right into the street and almost got hit by a car.
How do you stop a dog from doing that with positive reinforcement? Especially problematic since you can't reproduce the behavior at will in order to train him out of it?
A little background on the nature of this dog - who is otherwise a lovable beast. The first time we house sat for him, I was frustrated almost to tears - that dog was clearly accustomed to ruling the house. I couldn't read a book without his snatching it away from me and trying to get me to chase him for it. Anything he could reach was quickly chewed up - my hat, pen, the pillows, paper napkins, newspaper, etc., etc.. When I tried to watch TV, he tried to get into my lap and otherwise constantly demanded attention. He is so willful he has bitten his owner trying to get her to let go of the leash and let him play. He has also done that to me - grabbing my arm with his mouth and holding on - he thought it was a game, but my arm hurt for a long time. It was not an intentional, mean bite; he just doesn't know his strength and no one set boundaries for him. If I ever acquired an animal that is stronger than I am, I would make sure that dog is trained into competition level obedience from the time he takes his first wobbly steps. But he is not mine. His owners have never had to deal with such a willful dog and tend to bribe him into complying rather than committing to the extra training he needs. Not everyone has that in him.
To prevent such biting and other potentially harmful behavior like jumping on people or butting them with his bony head or hips, I have been intent on teaching him respect for humans. It starts with not giving him anything not even eye contact - unless he sits politely. With me, he really gets it because I am that consistent and he is not stupid. At the dog park and anywhere else we run into people, I ask other people to please not pet him - which they all want to do because he is so gorgeous and friendly - unless he sits. (Most people comply, but you would be amazed that some people actually give me lip about it - stupid people who have no control over their own dogs.) He now sits most of the time when he approaches people. Once he got it into his head that people are to be treated with respect, I have been able to get him to obey commands, using positive enforcement exclusively. I have funny pictures of this 90 pound dog and my 10 pound Chihuahua sitting side by side in -sit-stay waiting for me to give the release word. And now I can read a book and watch TV pretty much in peace and he almost always let's go of what he has grabbed when I tell him to. I can let him off leash when I take him on trails because he will come when called.
Yes, I am a good dog handler. His owners are grateful to me for making him more tolerable to live with - though he still has some way to go. He is still a handful but he now obeys fairly well when he is in a "normal" frame of mind. But when his mind flips into some other zone as in chasing a squirrel, he doesn't even hear me. I am at a loss as to how to train him NOT to bolt. I am afraid that, sooner or later, he'll make me or his owner fall and break a bone. Or he will be hit by a car.
That's why I have been considering an e-collar, to stop him dead in his tracks before he hurts me or himself.
In my personal opinion, this dog is not "pet" material; he needs a job. But there is nothing I can do about that.
Sober advice will be much appreciated.
Considering an e-collar
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OnceInAWeil
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:20 pm
- Location: AZ, USA
Re: Considering an e-collar
He definitely needs more stimulation of some sort. It sounds like he is bored out of his mind.
As for walking, specifically, for now I would recommend using a head collar with the harness. Use two leashes, and make sure the leash attached to the harness is shorter. You don't want to only have a leash on the head collar, because a sudden jerking motion in the head collar can create serious neck injuries. You want the harness to absorb initial lunges, and then the head collar keeps the dog from dragging you off.
I also weigh 105lbs, and I walk a 100lb rottweiler who is reactive.
You need to desensitize him to the triggers that he reacts to. This means find a place where there are squirrels, etc. and let him see them from afar. If he is reacting to them, he is too close and needs to be moved away. Once you establish his behavioral threshold (distance he can be from trigger without a reaction), start clicking and treating him for looking at the squirrels, etc. and not bolting. As you progress, he will be able to get closer and closer without bolting.
If you incorporate the e collar, he could start to associate the triggers with pain, and then you could have a dog who lunges and displays aggressively instead of just lunging out of excitement.
As for walking, specifically, for now I would recommend using a head collar with the harness. Use two leashes, and make sure the leash attached to the harness is shorter. You don't want to only have a leash on the head collar, because a sudden jerking motion in the head collar can create serious neck injuries. You want the harness to absorb initial lunges, and then the head collar keeps the dog from dragging you off.
I also weigh 105lbs, and I walk a 100lb rottweiler who is reactive.
You need to desensitize him to the triggers that he reacts to. This means find a place where there are squirrels, etc. and let him see them from afar. If he is reacting to them, he is too close and needs to be moved away. Once you establish his behavioral threshold (distance he can be from trigger without a reaction), start clicking and treating him for looking at the squirrels, etc. and not bolting. As you progress, he will be able to get closer and closer without bolting.
If you incorporate the e collar, he could start to associate the triggers with pain, and then you could have a dog who lunges and displays aggressively instead of just lunging out of excitement.
Re: Considering an e-collar
How do you think an e-collar would actually help?
If he is capable of snatching the leash out of your hand or pulling you over when he spots something worthy of chasing, how do you think you will press that button BEFORE he bolts?
Because sure, you can press it afterwards but he has already bolted - hes already pulled you into traffic, run across a road, knocked someone flying... and whilst those are the potentials, what is guaranteed is, he has already reinforced the action of bolting after something, by doing it, its a self rewarding behaviour even if he is subsequently stopped in his tracks a minute or two later, even if he doesn't catch what he is chasing
I can completely understand your frustration, I really do.. but I'll show you where the problem is in your thinking:
The problem here is you cannot punish it accurately enough at the right time to end the behaviour, it is ALWAYS going to be worth dashing off after a squirrel even if you have an E-collar set high, if you set him up and only train him at the moment he spots a squirrel.
So, how do I stop a dog chasing squirrels - I don't - I teach a dog to exercise impulse control, and wait for a cue to be given before he can hare off after something. I am teaching him a behaviour I do like 'exercise impulse control' and the side effect is, I prevent the behaviour I do not like from happening in the first place, so I have no need to punish it!
So build on what you have already done, and show the owners this too - they cannot expect miracles if they will not put in the work.
Firstly if at all possible I would not walk him where there is a high risk of squirrels (or anything else he chases). I do realise in some places thats not always practical so the next thing to look at is shortening his walks so he has less time to see a squirrel - you can always do MORE walks, but he's far less chance of seeing something to bolt after in a 15 minute walk than he does in a 45 minute walk.
I would use a headcollar in conjuction with the easywalk harness - use a second leash and I would pick a leash that has a different texture, weight, width, whatever it is so that you can easily tell one leash from the other without having to look.
Then you make sure you hold the leashes so that the harness leash is slightly shorter than the headcollar leash - this means IF he lunges the weight of it is taken by the harness on his body, and THEN the headcollar comes into play. You do not want him hitting a headcollar full belt - sure it will stop him in his tracks but it might also break his neck.
If that isn't sufficient then get a bungee section or elasticated section for the harness leash - this will take out the jerk and soften his lunge so he doesn't take your arm off your pull you over.
So thats walks covered - and be vigilant on walks if you see a squirrel and he didn't see it yet - turn around and head the other way! YOu don't have to complete a set route for a walk to be useful to him, so do not get stuck into thinking 'well i HAVE to go that way...' because you really don't.
Impulse control - this needs to start at home and given the other behavior you describe in this guy, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that he has this problem. Check out susan garretts videos on youtube, 'its yer choice' - theres a thread on this in the articles section too.
You basically teach him in the house, in the yard, in every environment you can think of starting from 'super easy' to 'difficult', that dashing, grabbing, lunging etc, does NOT work - some other behaviour DOES work.
You have actually already started this - by refusing to acknowledge him when he is acting out and rewarding him the second he sits nicely, you are making him exercise a degree of impulse control.
I practice this with my naggy dog - we work with food and also balls as he loves to fetch - I ask him to wait and I throw the ball whilst holding his collar and I don't release him to go until I feel his muscles relax and I can let go his collar and wait a second and then tell him to go. We built up from there, just ignoring a ball rolled a few feet, to me being able to throw the ball, no wait command given, it eventually becomes implied.. you don't go until told... throw the ball a LONG way, and then throw a second ball in the other direction, and wait, and then ask him to lie down, and THEN send him for the second ball, and then send him for the original ball.
Sometimes the second item i throw is not even a ball, and he doesn't much like retrieving things that are not balls, but to earn the ball he has to get me the other things first...
And then I mix this up, so he doesn't know if hes going to be sent to get the ball AS i throw it, or if hes going to have to fetch me other things or run through some other cues first, then get to go or what.. he cannot anticipate me, he MUST exercise impulse control or the game is over.
You do need to practice this in LOTS of ways, so practice him choosing to look away from offered food, rather than snatch for it, in return for similar food given from your other hand when he looks away. Practice him leaving food you place on the floor, then food you drop, then food you ping off the top of his head....
Practice with toys, practice wtih hidden people throwing furry toys into his eye-line, practice in EVERY location you can until he generalises that he MUST control himself to earn rewards.
If he is capable of snatching the leash out of your hand or pulling you over when he spots something worthy of chasing, how do you think you will press that button BEFORE he bolts?
Because sure, you can press it afterwards but he has already bolted - hes already pulled you into traffic, run across a road, knocked someone flying... and whilst those are the potentials, what is guaranteed is, he has already reinforced the action of bolting after something, by doing it, its a self rewarding behaviour even if he is subsequently stopped in his tracks a minute or two later, even if he doesn't catch what he is chasing
I can completely understand your frustration, I really do.. but I'll show you where the problem is in your thinking:
You don't. Your second sentence is why you don't - you are looking for the wrong behaviour, so that you can punish it, which is how punishment based training works. Allow the dog to make a mistake, then punish it so he eventually learns not to make that mistake again.How do you stop a dog from doing that with positive reinforcement? Especially problematic since you can't reproduce the behavior at will in order to train him out of it?
The problem here is you cannot punish it accurately enough at the right time to end the behaviour, it is ALWAYS going to be worth dashing off after a squirrel even if you have an E-collar set high, if you set him up and only train him at the moment he spots a squirrel.
So, how do I stop a dog chasing squirrels - I don't - I teach a dog to exercise impulse control, and wait for a cue to be given before he can hare off after something. I am teaching him a behaviour I do like 'exercise impulse control' and the side effect is, I prevent the behaviour I do not like from happening in the first place, so I have no need to punish it!
So build on what you have already done, and show the owners this too - they cannot expect miracles if they will not put in the work.
Firstly if at all possible I would not walk him where there is a high risk of squirrels (or anything else he chases). I do realise in some places thats not always practical so the next thing to look at is shortening his walks so he has less time to see a squirrel - you can always do MORE walks, but he's far less chance of seeing something to bolt after in a 15 minute walk than he does in a 45 minute walk.
I would use a headcollar in conjuction with the easywalk harness - use a second leash and I would pick a leash that has a different texture, weight, width, whatever it is so that you can easily tell one leash from the other without having to look.
Then you make sure you hold the leashes so that the harness leash is slightly shorter than the headcollar leash - this means IF he lunges the weight of it is taken by the harness on his body, and THEN the headcollar comes into play. You do not want him hitting a headcollar full belt - sure it will stop him in his tracks but it might also break his neck.
If that isn't sufficient then get a bungee section or elasticated section for the harness leash - this will take out the jerk and soften his lunge so he doesn't take your arm off your pull you over.
So thats walks covered - and be vigilant on walks if you see a squirrel and he didn't see it yet - turn around and head the other way! YOu don't have to complete a set route for a walk to be useful to him, so do not get stuck into thinking 'well i HAVE to go that way...' because you really don't.
Impulse control - this needs to start at home and given the other behavior you describe in this guy, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that he has this problem. Check out susan garretts videos on youtube, 'its yer choice' - theres a thread on this in the articles section too.
You basically teach him in the house, in the yard, in every environment you can think of starting from 'super easy' to 'difficult', that dashing, grabbing, lunging etc, does NOT work - some other behaviour DOES work.
You have actually already started this - by refusing to acknowledge him when he is acting out and rewarding him the second he sits nicely, you are making him exercise a degree of impulse control.
I practice this with my naggy dog - we work with food and also balls as he loves to fetch - I ask him to wait and I throw the ball whilst holding his collar and I don't release him to go until I feel his muscles relax and I can let go his collar and wait a second and then tell him to go. We built up from there, just ignoring a ball rolled a few feet, to me being able to throw the ball, no wait command given, it eventually becomes implied.. you don't go until told... throw the ball a LONG way, and then throw a second ball in the other direction, and wait, and then ask him to lie down, and THEN send him for the second ball, and then send him for the original ball.
Sometimes the second item i throw is not even a ball, and he doesn't much like retrieving things that are not balls, but to earn the ball he has to get me the other things first...
And then I mix this up, so he doesn't know if hes going to be sent to get the ball AS i throw it, or if hes going to have to fetch me other things or run through some other cues first, then get to go or what.. he cannot anticipate me, he MUST exercise impulse control or the game is over.
You do need to practice this in LOTS of ways, so practice him choosing to look away from offered food, rather than snatch for it, in return for similar food given from your other hand when he looks away. Practice him leaving food you place on the floor, then food you drop, then food you ping off the top of his head....
Practice with toys, practice wtih hidden people throwing furry toys into his eye-line, practice in EVERY location you can until he generalises that he MUST control himself to earn rewards.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Considering an e-collar
i also have a seriel puller. boy dog is a work in progress.......and i'm a big fan of the bungee leash extenders
they don't absolve you of having to train towards the goal of loose lead walking, but they do take some of the danger out of the equation by making it so you can avoid the face plant.
they don't absolve you of having to train towards the goal of loose lead walking, but they do take some of the danger out of the equation by making it so you can avoid the face plant.
Re: Considering an e-collar
Great feedback! Thanks, everyone. Yes, I am convinced that heavy duty work on impulse control is the name of the game. Forget the e-collar. Now all I have to do is convince his owner to work with me on this. Normally, I get him only twice a week and the intent there is for him to get exercise. I'll need to get more time for training him, training his humans, and getting them to put in the time and effort and be consistent.
As for the bungee leash extenders, I thought that was a great idea. Never heard of them. I did some Googling and found there are bungee leashes too. I'll definitely get his owners to get one of their choice ASAP..
And yes, I agree this dog needs more stimulation. He really should have a job. Failing that, I am trying to convince his owner to take him to agility class, or sheep herding classes, or dance classes, anything to keep his mind engaged and more exercise.
He could also use a companion. Sometimes I have brought other dogs to his house to stay for a few days and he just loves it. He and my Chihuahua have a blast playing together. Want to see? I put some video clips on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zULL4uM0XMI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qohjcvDwUYs
As for the bungee leash extenders, I thought that was a great idea. Never heard of them. I did some Googling and found there are bungee leashes too. I'll definitely get his owners to get one of their choice ASAP..
And yes, I agree this dog needs more stimulation. He really should have a job. Failing that, I am trying to convince his owner to take him to agility class, or sheep herding classes, or dance classes, anything to keep his mind engaged and more exercise.
He could also use a companion. Sometimes I have brought other dogs to his house to stay for a few days and he just loves it. He and my Chihuahua have a blast playing together. Want to see? I put some video clips on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zULL4uM0XMI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qohjcvDwUYs
Re: Considering an e-collar
I would probably prefer the bungee extension to the bungee leash...the one I have has a small loop of flat, non stretchy material near the clip that I can grab if I need to. I feel the bungee leash might be less ideal for your situation, because if you have to shorten the leash, you don't have anywhere solid to grab that you know will stay the same length. Even without the little loop to grab, you would at least know the leash would be somewhat short if you grab the flat one near the clip.
I'm in a similar situation myself - I, 165 pounds, walk 230 pound Zeus, and he has a lot more prey/chase/fetch drive than you'd expect from a mastiff! Squirrels and deer used to mean I ended up on my butt (or face) with Zeus somewhere ahead of me, chasing the creature. Working on it's yer choice, sit-stays (down-stays would help too, but it's more difficult for Zeus to get up from a down than to ignore any toys or other distractions), stand-stays (I think these helped more than sits for him - again, it's a process for him to get up from a sit, so standing and staying still seemed good to train him in) and leaving a flirt pole* alone until I released him helped a lot! I now feel comfortable with only the front-clipping harness, though I bring along the head collar in case something extremely odd happens and I don't think he'll be able to hold his usual concentration/respect for me.
So yes, work on lots of impulse control in lots of places.
*As he's a mastiff and they tend to have joint/bone problems, I didn't do the normal flirt pole circles with him. I would have him leave the toy, swing it around a bit, then take off running before releasing him. He would only run straight lines - no sharp turns etc.
I'm in a similar situation myself - I, 165 pounds, walk 230 pound Zeus, and he has a lot more prey/chase/fetch drive than you'd expect from a mastiff! Squirrels and deer used to mean I ended up on my butt (or face) with Zeus somewhere ahead of me, chasing the creature. Working on it's yer choice, sit-stays (down-stays would help too, but it's more difficult for Zeus to get up from a down than to ignore any toys or other distractions), stand-stays (I think these helped more than sits for him - again, it's a process for him to get up from a sit, so standing and staying still seemed good to train him in) and leaving a flirt pole* alone until I released him helped a lot! I now feel comfortable with only the front-clipping harness, though I bring along the head collar in case something extremely odd happens and I don't think he'll be able to hold his usual concentration/respect for me.
So yes, work on lots of impulse control in lots of places.
*As he's a mastiff and they tend to have joint/bone problems, I didn't do the normal flirt pole circles with him. I would have him leave the toy, swing it around a bit, then take off running before releasing him. He would only run straight lines - no sharp turns etc.
Delta, standard poodle, born 6/30/14
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horseluver65
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:12 am
Re: Considering an e-collar
E collars are quite harsh and can be damaging to a dog. I've seen them used but really wouldn't recommend one. Instead I would purchase a prong collar and have either someone at the pet store or a dog trainer explain how to use it. If used properly, a prong collar can help to curb a number of bad behaviors. I've used one on my lab for a very long time and she doesn't have any problems with it. She's still as bouncy and cheerful as any other lab and even enjoys wearing her collar because she knows that means she's going for a walk. Still no training device is a substitute for good training. A prong collar should be like a safety net if something goes wrong but you should not have to rely on one all the time. You should be able to walk the dog safely with or without it. I suggest teaching the heel command. Line the dog up beside you on your left while holding a treat in that hand. Then instruct the dog to 'heel' and walk forward. If it pulls or lunges administer a leash and collar correction. If not reward and praise the dog. Practice for a few weeks things should improve. Also as far as head collars go, they're a great concept but I've found that most dogs hate them. Even though I've introduced it to my dog slowly and gently, she still acts miserable every time I put one on her. If however, your dog doesn't have a problem with one ( once he gets used to it of course) this can be a great training device.
Re: Considering an e-collar
Hi there horselover65, the recommendations you've made here are against the training philosophies of this board. This is a positive reinforcement training forum and would never recommened the use of aversives in training.
Operant conditioning rocks but classical conditioning rules
Re: Considering an e-collar
Horseluver65 will be recieving a warning via PM. I will leave this post up (and the other as they were posted within minutes of each other) but further postings recommending aversives will be removed and the poster risks being banned.
Just a reminder to people who may have missed the sticky or announcement posts - this is a positive reinforcement based board, and whilst we can discuss aversives we may not promote or encourage their use!
Just a reminder to people who may have missed the sticky or announcement posts - this is a positive reinforcement based board, and whilst we can discuss aversives we may not promote or encourage their use!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Considering an e-collar
Thanks everyone for your great feedback and suggestions. I realize you are right that if he surprises me with his sudden lurches, I wouldn't be prepared to use the e-collar anyway. I really hated the idea anyway. I have discarded the idea. I am working harder than ever on his impulse control by making him wait longer at doors before allowing him through, making him wait after i throw a ball until I give him the release word, etc..I have to remind his owner to do the same since I have him only 2x a week for a little over an hour. She is completely on board with this, but doesn't have the same focus on dogs as I do. I am also tying his leash to the car handle so that he can never take me by surprise and jump out of the car to chase a cat or squirrel before I am ready. His owner is ordering a bungee extension for his leash. Anymore suggestions on how to proof his impulse control in exciting situations would be appreciated.
Re: Considering an e-collar
PS. As for prong collars, I HATE them. Almost as much as choke collars. I have gone up to complete strangers walking their dogs on those things and convinced them to switch to a head collar or easy walker. Gordon's owner was using a prong collar on him before I convinced her to give it up for an easy walker. It made no difference to him anyway. He completely ignored it. I met her and her dog in a training class given by a professional trainer who taught popping/yanking the collar as a way of teaching heeling, loose leash walking, leave it, and such. She also recommended prong collars. I hooked up with Gordon's owner and we never went back to that trainer. But the prong collar did no good for this dog anyway. You couldn't possibly tug his leash hard enough to make him care. Besides, he never understood why the leash was being yanked. But he does respond to positive reinforcement which, for him, often consists of strokes, praise, or just attention. Because I would not give him any attention unless his sits nicely and waits, he now knows that is what he has to do to get what he wants. It makes me proud to see him run up to someone and sit instead of jumping on them as he used to do.
By the way, neither choke collars nor prong collars are permitted in classes at the Berkeley Humane Society. It's probably the same at all humane society training classes.
By the way, neither choke collars nor prong collars are permitted in classes at the Berkeley Humane Society. It's probably the same at all humane society training classes.
Re: Considering an e-collar
I didn't realize you were near Berkeley. check out these guys for training http://www.siriuspup.com/ as another training option. I can ask around for you see if any of the people I know has recommendations. I am in the south bay, so not too far from you.
Re: Considering an e-collar
I'm familiar with sirius. It seems they only take dogs that have been through their puppy program Also, they don't have the kinds of programs I am interested in for my personal dog, mainly doggy sports.
Re: Considering an e-collar
my neighbor took her dog, not a puppy, through one of their beginning adult dog classes down at our end of the bay. could just be your location.
just an option. I know the trainers I am associated with require a basic beginning class or some sort of demonstration before you can take their sports orientated classes.
just an option. I know the trainers I am associated with require a basic beginning class or some sort of demonstration before you can take their sports orientated classes.
Re: Considering an e-collar
I take only my own dog, a sweet natured, friendly, and very well behaved Chihuahua to training classes. She has completed intermediate obedience, two nose work classes, tricks and K9 freestyle . (I am just crowing.) She will be doing rally obedience and advanced obedience in that order. I also train her myself. Everything strictly positive reinforcement. I have tried clicker training but she is afraid of the clicker. I can do nothing but suggest classes to other dog owners. In the worse cases, I refuse to take badly behaved dogs for walks.
