Beware the dog nerds!Mattie wrote:
The rest of this thread has gone over my head, I am completely baffled by it.
![Shocked :shock:](./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
Sorry Mattie! I just love these types of discussions.
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Doggie Python wrote:Beware the dog nerds!Mattie wrote:
The rest of this thread has gone over my head, I am completely baffled by it.![]()
Sorry Mattie! I just love these types of discussions.
Agreed, but I am a chemist first and foremost and tend to place my faith in science. I understand the scientific process and how experiments can successfully be transfereed to the real world.Both Skinner and Pavlov have my respect. So does Karen Pryor. So does Jane Goodall...and many others. But their discoveries and opinions are part of a larger range philosophies, studies, and perspectives. No one person holds all of the answers.
Nope, you weren't.The terminology "reacting in fear" when it comes to aggression still bugs me. It's too general and describes a lot of things we do every day. I was walking down the stairs earlier today, and wondered why I didn't fall on my face...why, I was reacting in fear of gravity by keeping my feet under me.
Sorry, Mattie. If I get too technical, give me a swift kick. It comes with being a total nerd/geek/dweeb.Mattie wrote:Doggie Python wrote:Beware the dog nerds!Mattie wrote:
The rest of this thread has gone over my head, I am completely baffled by it.![]()
Sorry Mattie! I just love these types of discussions.
So do I when I can understand them
OMD, that explains DH. He thinks not, therefore he is!!!! Maggie, you are a genius!!!behaviourists today do not believe that Descartes was right.
Okay, I get what you're saying.Missymay wrote:
If, in the past, you had fallen down the steps and now avoided them like the plague because everytime you went near them your heart started racing and your stomach seized up, that would be reactivity.
Ugh. No words for that one.ckranz wrote:Wasn't it descartes that had the horrid belief that dogs do not feel and nailed dogs on the barn wall as evidence?
Decartes asserts:
"animals are machines, automata, do not think, have no language, have no self-concious, and worst of all totally without feeling"
He committed some of the worst animal experiments to prove his thesis.
How do you know the dogs suffer?Mattie wrote:Missymay wrote:Mattie, I never hesitate to ask for more information. If I know anything, it is how little I know![]()
And while Cesar does use simple words, his concepts rely on dominating and physical corrections. His entire philosphy relies on domination. Nervous dominance does not even make sense.
Yes, unfortunately the way he works with dogs the dogs suffer, but he is talking to the owners in a way they can understand so they continue with what he has told them. Many trainers talk in a way that owners don't understand so the owners give up.
I will ask questions Missymay up to a point, if all I am getting back is the same gobbledy gook that I have said I don't understand, then I stop asking.
The rest of this thread has gone over my head, I am completely baffled by it.
What kind of emotions? Do you think dogs can "love"? Can the "reason"? I have these discussions with many folks and honestly I do believe that on some level they can reason. Not sure about the love part....?Missymay wrote:Taking away the thinking and feeling pain part (and let's not forget the time in which Descartes lived), are any of us more than reacting machines?
That's where Skinner lost popular support.
We like to think of ourselves as above animals, capable of free will, but is even or inner voice, our conscience, shaped by our actions/consequences? Could we create the perfect Utopia by simply controlling consequences? Could we stop inappropriate behavior in society in this way? Do we truly have free will?
Bringing this back to dogs, I don't believe dogs do have free will. I don't believe they are self aware.
I do believe they have emotions, but self awareness? No.
Sorry, getting really OT and maybe a little too deep for me tonight.