Beware the dog nerds!Mattie wrote:
The rest of this thread has gone over my head, I am completely baffled by it.
Sorry Mattie! I just love these types of discussions.
Victoria/Cesar stand off!!
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Doggie Python
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Doggie Python wrote:Beware the dog nerds!Mattie wrote:
The rest of this thread has gone over my head, I am completely baffled by it.
Sorry Mattie! I just love these types of discussions.
So do I when I can understand them
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
LOL. I understand most of it, but only if I read each entry twice...lol.
Mattie..I agree that his Cesarisms can be effective to a point in communication and that common words are necessary to explain things to many. Ask Missymay how often I asked for details on what they were discussing in the other forum we frequent...my constant need for information could not prevent me asking, even if I appeared to be a "know nuttin"...lol.
I think the difficulty here with CM is that simple is great IF what he was saying was not generalized to the point of OVERsimplicity. OMG..that didn't make much sense..I'll try again (see how important communication is?? lol)
Yes, our average Joe pet owner may not understand the terms in Operant learning theory, etc. BUT do we need to assume "he" is so illiterate that he wouldn't understand words like "fear" or "overexcitement" or any other terms that would better describe what the dogs are doing? There has to be a middle ground somewhere.
As for the scientific discussion between Python and Missymay...after rereading AGAIN..lol.. I have decided to simply watch, learn and come back when I have a witty, engaging and intellectually superior post. That may be a while...
Oh wait..I at least can say...behaviourists today do not believe that Descartes was right. Sorry Mattie...bol.
Mattie..I agree that his Cesarisms can be effective to a point in communication and that common words are necessary to explain things to many. Ask Missymay how often I asked for details on what they were discussing in the other forum we frequent...my constant need for information could not prevent me asking, even if I appeared to be a "know nuttin"...lol.
I think the difficulty here with CM is that simple is great IF what he was saying was not generalized to the point of OVERsimplicity. OMG..that didn't make much sense..I'll try again (see how important communication is?? lol)
Yes, our average Joe pet owner may not understand the terms in Operant learning theory, etc. BUT do we need to assume "he" is so illiterate that he wouldn't understand words like "fear" or "overexcitement" or any other terms that would better describe what the dogs are doing? There has to be a middle ground somewhere.
As for the scientific discussion between Python and Missymay...after rereading AGAIN..lol.. I have decided to simply watch, learn and come back when I have a witty, engaging and intellectually superior post. That may be a while...
Oh wait..I at least can say...behaviourists today do not believe that Descartes was right. Sorry Mattie...bol.
Maggi Burtt
Tailspin Petworx
[img]http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq216/tailspinpetworx/Picture010-1.jpg[/img]
Tailspin Petworx
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Oh..about communication again.
I went to see a new client (a couple) and their extreme resource guarding beagle/basset on saturday. Turns out I was number 5 on the visit list in the last two months.
2 Behavourists (certified, one a phd and vet.) and 3 trainers.
After speaking about how dogs learn in regular language and with examples and discussing behaviour modification and a non confrontational approach (and why this is NOT "letting the dog win") they finally appeared to understand what all but one of their previous visitors were trying to tell them. One "trainer" doesn't count because he confronted the dog, hung him by his collar, forced him into submission and got bitten. Stupid man.
I am 90 percent sure that my recommendations were pretty much the same as the rest...but the clients just didn't get it..too much jargon, no "examples" or analogies.
So hopefully, these clients are on their way to an improved life with their dog. If not, at least they can understand why.
I went to see a new client (a couple) and their extreme resource guarding beagle/basset on saturday. Turns out I was number 5 on the visit list in the last two months.
2 Behavourists (certified, one a phd and vet.) and 3 trainers.
After speaking about how dogs learn in regular language and with examples and discussing behaviour modification and a non confrontational approach (and why this is NOT "letting the dog win") they finally appeared to understand what all but one of their previous visitors were trying to tell them. One "trainer" doesn't count because he confronted the dog, hung him by his collar, forced him into submission and got bitten. Stupid man.
I am 90 percent sure that my recommendations were pretty much the same as the rest...but the clients just didn't get it..too much jargon, no "examples" or analogies.
So hopefully, these clients are on their way to an improved life with their dog. If not, at least they can understand why.
Maggi Burtt
Tailspin Petworx
[img]http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq216/tailspinpetworx/Picture010-1.jpg[/img]
Tailspin Petworx
[img]http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq216/tailspinpetworx/Picture010-1.jpg[/img]
Mattie, my first week of classes are sans dogs. I take this time to clearly detail what I do and do not do and explain OC, CC and how they effect behavior. I think it is valuable time well spent.
Of course, my students usually get a demo of the homework I send home with them.
In fact, it was the science of behavior that appealled to me, took training from a mystical art form and transformed it into something I could understand and apply.
If, in the past, you had fallen down the steps and now avoided them like the plague because everytime you went near them your heart started racing and your stomach seized up, that would be reactivity.
Have you ever been in a car accident, then found stress levels rising as you drove by that spot?
If you are in the States, how did you feel when the first plane flew overhead after 9/11?
That is reactivity. It is usually not based on repeated consequences. You only need to have one accident at that spot to feel wary there.
And sometimes, it can be genetically predisposed.
Classical associations are not conscious ones.
Cracker, as always, the diplomat. You should be working at the embassy, my dear friend. You could easily solve many of the world's problems because you are level headed, logical and always kind.
Of course, my students usually get a demo of the homework I send home with them.
Agreed, but I am a chemist first and foremost and tend to place my faith in science. I understand the scientific process and how experiments can successfully be transfereed to the real world.Both Skinner and Pavlov have my respect. So does Karen Pryor. So does Jane Goodall...and many others. But their discoveries and opinions are part of a larger range philosophies, studies, and perspectives. No one person holds all of the answers.
In fact, it was the science of behavior that appealled to me, took training from a mystical art form and transformed it into something I could understand and apply.
Nope, you weren't.The terminology "reacting in fear" when it comes to aggression still bugs me. It's too general and describes a lot of things we do every day. I was walking down the stairs earlier today, and wondered why I didn't fall on my face...why, I was reacting in fear of gravity by keeping my feet under me.
If, in the past, you had fallen down the steps and now avoided them like the plague because everytime you went near them your heart started racing and your stomach seized up, that would be reactivity.
Have you ever been in a car accident, then found stress levels rising as you drove by that spot?
If you are in the States, how did you feel when the first plane flew overhead after 9/11?
That is reactivity. It is usually not based on repeated consequences. You only need to have one accident at that spot to feel wary there.
And sometimes, it can be genetically predisposed.
Classical associations are not conscious ones.
Sorry, Mattie. If I get too technical, give me a swift kick. It comes with being a total nerd/geek/dweeb.Mattie wrote:Doggie Python wrote:Beware the dog nerds!Mattie wrote:
The rest of this thread has gone over my head, I am completely baffled by it.
Sorry Mattie! I just love these types of discussions.
So do I when I can understand them
Cracker, as always, the diplomat. You should be working at the embassy, my dear friend. You could easily solve many of the world's problems because you are level headed, logical and always kind.
Kim and Asher
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotionâ€
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotionâ€
OMD, that explains DH. He thinks not, therefore he is!!!! Maggie, you are a genius!!!behaviourists today do not believe that Descartes was right.
Kim and Asher
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotionâ€
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotionâ€
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Doggie Python
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Okay, I get what you're saying.Missymay wrote:
If, in the past, you had fallen down the steps and now avoided them like the plague because everytime you went near them your heart started racing and your stomach seized up, that would be reactivity.
The gravity part would be a rational (healthy)fear of falling, rather than reacting in fear through avoidance of the steps due to a past experience.
I still have a problem with the aggressive aspect of fear reactivity. When a dog is "choosing" fight over flight in certain (not all) social situations.
Now, this is coming from someone who adopted a very frightful and insecure (unsocialised? abused?) 18 month old dog. I saw the potential for fear-biting if she had been cornered.
There were times when I used classical conditioning (associating good things to help her through her fears), and there were times when I used my own behavior, trust in me, and asked her move forward with me (like I would a horse on the trail who trusted me, yet was afraid of a strange looking log). There were other times when I asked people to completely ignore her.
I was a combination which was adjusted for this specific dog. It's been four years and she's doing great.
I just think too much aggressive behavior is being mislabeled or excused as "fear reactivity".
"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" Dennis
Wasn't it descartes that had the horrid belief that dogs do not feel and nailed dogs on the barn wall as evidence?
Decartes asserts:
"animals are machines, automata, do not think, have no language, have no self-concious, and worst of all totally without feeling"
He committed some of the worst animal experiments to prove his thesis.
Decartes asserts:
"animals are machines, automata, do not think, have no language, have no self-concious, and worst of all totally without feeling"
He committed some of the worst animal experiments to prove his thesis.
And we cut of rabbit's eyelids and drop bleach in thier eyes. It seems man has not come very far, have we?? 
Python, many of these dogs will not bite unless they are cornered, and then you can see in their eyes that they are beyond choices and simply reacting in fear. That is the impostant part of reactivity. The dog is beyond thinking and running on the older, reptilian part of the brain.
And I would start classical with a reactive dog, then move to operant.
Of course, CAT is all operant. Intense, exhausting, fast and all operant. I don't think it has been around long enough for me to really have a firm opinion on it one way or the other. I am still hoping to make it to a seminar and watch it in action.
So far, CAT has only been used for dog/dog issues, but if it proves successful, I think it may have much wider applications.
BTW, there is no excuse for aggression. Aggression should always be modified, not allowed or excused. I expect compliance from even the most abused foster that enters my household, but I am willing to put in the work it takes to get there.
Like I said, two short years ago, my little guy would have ripped my face off if I tried to put it near his. Now, kisses are a default behavior when he doesn't know what I want.
Python, many of these dogs will not bite unless they are cornered, and then you can see in their eyes that they are beyond choices and simply reacting in fear. That is the impostant part of reactivity. The dog is beyond thinking and running on the older, reptilian part of the brain.
And I would start classical with a reactive dog, then move to operant.
Of course, CAT is all operant. Intense, exhausting, fast and all operant. I don't think it has been around long enough for me to really have a firm opinion on it one way or the other. I am still hoping to make it to a seminar and watch it in action.
So far, CAT has only been used for dog/dog issues, but if it proves successful, I think it may have much wider applications.
BTW, there is no excuse for aggression. Aggression should always be modified, not allowed or excused. I expect compliance from even the most abused foster that enters my household, but I am willing to put in the work it takes to get there.
Like I said, two short years ago, my little guy would have ripped my face off if I tried to put it near his. Now, kisses are a default behavior when he doesn't know what I want.
Last edited by Missymay on Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kim and Asher
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotionâ€
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotionâ€
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Doggie Python
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Ugh. No words for that one.ckranz wrote:Wasn't it descartes that had the horrid belief that dogs do not feel and nailed dogs on the barn wall as evidence?
Decartes asserts:
"animals are machines, automata, do not think, have no language, have no self-concious, and worst of all totally without feeling"
He committed some of the worst animal experiments to prove his thesis.
"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" Dennis
Yes, that is the Descartes that I referenced. What I meant was that modern day behaviourists (or most of them at least) are no longer strict behaviourists like Descartes who believed that animals were simply reacting machines, who did not think or feel pain. Sorry it was such a painful reference. I was making a comparison related to Python's comment about "radical behaviourism".
I have had the fear/reactivity/aggression discussion before on other forums as well.
I believe that the aggression is a symptom of the reactivity/fear. Most reactive dogs are fine off leash or where they have room to "secure" themselves or to escape if overwhelmed. In the amphibian part of the brain (amygdala/hypothalamus) when a creature is under threat, the cortisol levels rise, the heart rate increases and the animal (ALL, including humans) prepares for fight or flight at an instinctive/chemical level. In most animals flight is the first reaction but if flight is unavailable (cornered, restricted by a leash, held back etc) the secondary fight instinct kicks in. If it succeeds, and in the case of dog leash reactivity it often does, and the "threat" moves away then this may become the default behaviour. So it may start out being completely instinct driven and then move in to a partially learned behaviour. If it does not work then after a large burst of aggression learned helplessness usually kicks in. THis is what we talk about when we say a dog has "shut down".
So, aggression IMHO is a symptom of something..whether this is due to extreme fear, maternal aggression, dominance or control related aggression, pain aggression or one of a myriad of other types of aggression it is amenable to treatment based on WHY it is there. In the case of idiopathic aggression (of unknown origin) that is not related to epilepsy, this is most likely untreatable and may require drastic measures, including euthanasia.
I have had the fear/reactivity/aggression discussion before on other forums as well.
I believe that the aggression is a symptom of the reactivity/fear. Most reactive dogs are fine off leash or where they have room to "secure" themselves or to escape if overwhelmed. In the amphibian part of the brain (amygdala/hypothalamus) when a creature is under threat, the cortisol levels rise, the heart rate increases and the animal (ALL, including humans) prepares for fight or flight at an instinctive/chemical level. In most animals flight is the first reaction but if flight is unavailable (cornered, restricted by a leash, held back etc) the secondary fight instinct kicks in. If it succeeds, and in the case of dog leash reactivity it often does, and the "threat" moves away then this may become the default behaviour. So it may start out being completely instinct driven and then move in to a partially learned behaviour. If it does not work then after a large burst of aggression learned helplessness usually kicks in. THis is what we talk about when we say a dog has "shut down".
So, aggression IMHO is a symptom of something..whether this is due to extreme fear, maternal aggression, dominance or control related aggression, pain aggression or one of a myriad of other types of aggression it is amenable to treatment based on WHY it is there. In the case of idiopathic aggression (of unknown origin) that is not related to epilepsy, this is most likely untreatable and may require drastic measures, including euthanasia.
Maggi Burtt
Tailspin Petworx
[img]http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq216/tailspinpetworx/Picture010-1.jpg[/img]
Tailspin Petworx
[img]http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq216/tailspinpetworx/Picture010-1.jpg[/img]
Taking away the thinking and feeling pain part (and let's not forget the time in which Descartes lived), are any of us more than reacting machines?
That's where Skinner lost popular support.
We like to think of ourselves as above animals, capable of free will, but is even or inner voice, our conscience, shaped by our actions/consequences? Could we create the perfect Utopia by simply controlling consequences? Could we stop inappropriate behavior in society in this way? Do we truly have free will?
Bringing this back to dogs, I don't believe dogs do have free will. I don't believe they are self aware.
I do believe they have emotions, but self awareness? No.
Sorry, getting really OT and maybe a little too deep for me tonight.
That's where Skinner lost popular support.
We like to think of ourselves as above animals, capable of free will, but is even or inner voice, our conscience, shaped by our actions/consequences? Could we create the perfect Utopia by simply controlling consequences? Could we stop inappropriate behavior in society in this way? Do we truly have free will?
Bringing this back to dogs, I don't believe dogs do have free will. I don't believe they are self aware.
I do believe they have emotions, but self awareness? No.
Sorry, getting really OT and maybe a little too deep for me tonight.
Kim and Asher
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotionâ€
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotionâ€
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pro-ecollar
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How do you know the dogs suffer?Mattie wrote:Missymay wrote:Mattie, I never hesitate to ask for more information. If I know anything, it is how little I know
And while Cesar does use simple words, his concepts rely on dominating and physical corrections. His entire philosphy relies on domination. Nervous dominance does not even make sense.
Yes, unfortunately the way he works with dogs the dogs suffer, but he is talking to the owners in a way they can understand so they continue with what he has told them. Many trainers talk in a way that owners don't understand so the owners give up.
I will ask questions Missymay up to a point, if all I am getting back is the same gobbledy gook that I have said I don't understand, then I stop asking.
The rest of this thread has gone over my head, I am completely baffled by it.
Paul
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What kind of emotions? Do you think dogs can "love"? Can the "reason"? I have these discussions with many folks and honestly I do believe that on some level they can reason. Not sure about the love part....?Missymay wrote:Taking away the thinking and feeling pain part (and let's not forget the time in which Descartes lived), are any of us more than reacting machines?
That's where Skinner lost popular support.
We like to think of ourselves as above animals, capable of free will, but is even or inner voice, our conscience, shaped by our actions/consequences? Could we create the perfect Utopia by simply controlling consequences? Could we stop inappropriate behavior in society in this way? Do we truly have free will?
Bringing this back to dogs, I don't believe dogs do have free will. I don't believe they are self aware.
I do believe they have emotions, but self awareness? No.
Sorry, getting really OT and maybe a little too deep for me tonight.
Paul
I think it all depends on your definition of love. After all in most cases there is no agreed pre-defined definition of any partiular emotion.
Of course one could somehow measure the oxytocin level an dopamine levels which are commonly associated with feelings of love.
Some may define as something as simple as how their dog greets them when they return home. A happy excited greeting that lets an owner know or at least feel he was missed while he was away. One might interpret that as a sort of love.
I do belive animals experience almost all emotions that we humans experience, just not necessarly are they reflected with the same or similar behaviors. As primates a common expression of love is hugging. Dogs do not hug to express love, a dog may come over and lean against you wagging his tail, or bring over his favorite ball to engage in a fun game of fetch or tug toy to play a good game of tug.
When we are saddened and upset, many dogs will lie quietly nearby or seemingly offer solace.
Remember, if a dog was the teacher you would learn things like :
When loved ones come home, always run to greet them.
Never pass up the opportunity to go for a joyride.
Allow the experience of fresh air and the wind in your face to be pure
Ecstasy.
Take naps.
Stretch before rising.
Run, romp, and play daily.
Thrive on attention and let people touch you.
Avoid biting when a simple growl will do.
On warm days, stop to lie on your back on the grass.
On hot days, drink lots of water and lie under a shady tree.
When you're happy, dance around and wag your entire body.
Delight in the simple joy of a long walk.
Be loyal.
Never pretend to be something you're not.
If what you want lies buried, dig until you find it.
When someone is having a bad day, be silent, sit close by, and nuzzle them
gently.
Of course one could somehow measure the oxytocin level an dopamine levels which are commonly associated with feelings of love.
Some may define as something as simple as how their dog greets them when they return home. A happy excited greeting that lets an owner know or at least feel he was missed while he was away. One might interpret that as a sort of love.
I do belive animals experience almost all emotions that we humans experience, just not necessarly are they reflected with the same or similar behaviors. As primates a common expression of love is hugging. Dogs do not hug to express love, a dog may come over and lean against you wagging his tail, or bring over his favorite ball to engage in a fun game of fetch or tug toy to play a good game of tug.
When we are saddened and upset, many dogs will lie quietly nearby or seemingly offer solace.
Remember, if a dog was the teacher you would learn things like :
When loved ones come home, always run to greet them.
Never pass up the opportunity to go for a joyride.
Allow the experience of fresh air and the wind in your face to be pure
Ecstasy.
Take naps.
Stretch before rising.
Run, romp, and play daily.
Thrive on attention and let people touch you.
Avoid biting when a simple growl will do.
On warm days, stop to lie on your back on the grass.
On hot days, drink lots of water and lie under a shady tree.
When you're happy, dance around and wag your entire body.
Delight in the simple joy of a long walk.
Be loyal.
Never pretend to be something you're not.
If what you want lies buried, dig until you find it.
When someone is having a bad day, be silent, sit close by, and nuzzle them
gently.
