Please HELP!! Training WITHOUT treats???

[Julz]

As for not using force, can I ask how you "put the dog gently into a sit" then?

By getting their attention on your hand (or something in your hand) then raising your hand above eye level, so as they look up, you then guide your hand backwards, so the pup naturally has to go into a sit.... all you're doing there is getting the dogs attention with one hand, then with the other guiding it's rear end into a sit... It's not cruel, it's not invasive and it certainly isnt forceful. Pup's bones are still developing and are soft til they are about 6months old, so there shouldnt be any pushing/force going onto the skeleton, to do so would do untold damage to the dog.

[Sarah83]

Ah, now to me this isn't "putting" the dog into a sit, it's luring the dog into a sit. Any other time I've heard people say they put the dog into a position they've pushed/pulled or otherwise physically manipulated the dog into position. I haven't found I've needed to guide the back end down while luring though, as the head comes up the hind end sinks normally.

[Wicket]

Thanks for explaining that more clearly, Julz!

Karen Pryor in "Don't shoot the dog!" says that modeling (putting the dog into the position) can lead to the dog looking and depending more on the human to put him into position. In other words, the hand positioning the dog into the "sit" cue becomes mixed up with the "sit" cue. However, she says the right way to do modeling is with positive reinforcement. Once the dog learns the proper position, the hand is fading out and rewards are given for the dog sitting all by himself. Is that what you do?

[emmabeth]

Ah ha, yes, you ar e luring a sit, which can have its uses if you are careful to make sure that the dog is aware of the action he or she is performing rather than just following the treat/toy/hand movement.

'putting' as someone else said, to me has always meant 'using the hand on the dogs rear end to push it down into a sit'.

[Julz]

I am not and never have been very good at explaining things... Im better at showing people...

the hand at the rear end can be useful to stop pup walking backwards as sometimes happens..and so guiding the back end to sit... then pup would get either the reward you hold, or a wee scratch from the hand above his head.

[runlikethewind]

I think the misunderstanding here is with putting and luring. Putting suggests force Luring is good

[Noobs]

I am not and never have been very good at explaining things... Im better at showing people...

the hand at the rear end can be useful to stop pup walking backwards as sometimes happens..and so guiding the back end to sit... then pup would get either the reward you hold, or a wee scratch from the hand above his head.

Julz I would say the best way to not use your hand at all is to make sure the treat isn't too far above the dog's head. If it's just a teeny bit above the pup will follow with his nose and mouth instead of the whole body. This way, as said before, the dog doesn't associate the hand on rear end as part of the cue to sit.

[Sarah83]

I used a wall to stop Rupert walking backwards. If I'd put my hand on him he'd have just melted into a boneless heap on the floor but the wall was neutral and non scary. Once he couldn't walk backwards then doing as Noobs says worked really well.