To click or not to click, that is the question

[Pawzk9]

Hello All: I was wondering why Victoria sometimes uses clicker training and sometimes she doesn't. In what circumstances does one choose to use a clicker? Personally I feel clickers are unnecessary and that praise, a pat on the head, mini belly rub, toy or treat sufficiently marks the desired behavior. Clicker training began with dolphins and with them it's necessary as you cannot praise them while they are jumping in the air. They need the marker while airborne. This is clearly not the case with dogs. The clicker eventually has to be faded out/extinguished. So I really don't get why clicker training is necessary and again even Victoria doesn't use it on every dog. If it were so wonderful, why isn't it used on every dog she helps. I don't remember her using it on Stains the cupcake stealing dog, or that other dog who was taught to go to place instead of begging for sushi, and she didn't use it on Mr. Black. I think clicker training for dogs is just a fad. Opposing opinions backed with logical proof will be appreciated.

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Well, I'm not Victoria, so I can't speak to why she uses the tools she does, when she does - but I DO pretty much use a clicker on almost every dog. It is processed through the brain at a different level, and doesn't need translation (like words do) http://www.clickertraining.com/node/226
It always sounds the same and means the same thing (THAT behavior will be rewarded) It is more precise than voice. A click is like a scalpal compared to the butter knife of a voice. Once the behavior is on cue, I don't NEED that kind of precision. But truly you can communicate much more effectively in shaping with a clicker. I don't think you could even do it effectively with your voice. If you are going to lure and guide your dog, voice is probably sufficient.
The click has been proven in TAG training (with humans) to impart a lot more information than verbal communication. As to praise? Well, eventually it is often enough. However, it's the dog, not the human who decides what is, or is not reinforcing, and for many dogs simple praise is simply not reinforcing enough to solicit much of an effort. At least in the beginning.

[Pawzk9]

[quote="maximoo"]I know clickers have been around a long time, but I meant I think it's a fad in dog training.
Perhaps it has been introduced in dog training 20 yrs ago, however if it were so great why has it only become popular in the past 5 yrs or so.

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[color=indigoHuh, I've been clicker training for a dozen or so years. And I know a lot of other people who have been too. Where did you get the "5 year" timeline?[/color
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I don't mean to sound like I am knocking clicker training, but I have yet to see the necessity. I have seen so called clicker trained dogs need to go to command obedience training as the dogs were not well behaved. A dog should do for you as you ask b/c it pleases you and he loves you.

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That's a mighty big assumption about why dogs do the things they do. Dogs, like humans, are opportunists. They are more likely to do things to which they see benefit than out of altruistic reasons like "love." Additionally, when we assume dogs should work for us because they love us, the conclusion is likely to be an emotional "my dog doesn't love me enough" instead of an acknowledgement that we simply haven't communicated what we want and why it's in his best interest to do it. By the way, my dogs don't need to go to "command" obedience (whatever that is) to know what they need to know.
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Many people click at the wrong time, lose/misplace it, etc.

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Which has nothing to do with the efficacy of the method.
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How about an enthusuastic "YES" when dog does something to please you. I do think very small training treats enhance the training process, to be eventually phased out as dog masters the command. then given randomly as the owners see fit.

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"Yes" is a marker, just like a click is. Just not as precise.

[Pawzk9]

[quote="Paul&Muttley"]I am still new to clicker training, and in fact I have not actually used it, but I have observed it being taught by a positive trainer. I agree that it can be a very effective method, and it is least likely to cause harm, so at least should be tried first.

With respect, if you have not actually used it, you are more than "very new" to it.

But somewhere I read that (at least for people), different personality types respond better to different forms of training, or behavioral shaping, which may include reward, punishment, and novelty.

Punishment, by it's very definition, surpresses behavior. So, if you are working with a technique that expects a dog to be willing to experiment and find out what works, every time you apply positive punishment, you are shooting yourself in the foot. They are not mix and match. And I've yet to meet a dog who learns "better" through punishment, unless you define "better" as a dog who is willing to do nothing, because they aren't sure what behaviors are "safe".

[Paul&Muttley]

From what I have read about positive methods, a +P correction may be effective if administered within one second of the behavior that is deemed undesirable. This is based on Victoria Stilwell's book IMOTD, page 66, in reference to timing. I certainly don't think corrections should be harsh and punishing, but a very mild signal to the dog, such as a "tsst", "uh-oh", or a quick touch to block a behavior provides needed feedback.

It may not be appropriate for dogs who are hand shy, fearful, and prone to shutting down, but may be what is needed for overly confident and bossy dogs (as Victoria describes Terriers on page 29.) I think this may be something to try in the case of the "red zone" dog who bites excessively and may not have learned bite inhibition as a puppy by +P corrections administered by the mother *****.

Granted, I do not have personal experience using a clicker, and I was taught to use forcible corrections which were totally inappropriate and ineffective because the core problem was inattention. I can fully understand the concept of using treats with a clicker to form an association between the distinctive sound and good things, and then using the sound to mark desired behavior instantly and at a distance. Once the dog pays attention to the handler and develops a relaxed attitude, learning can take place. But yanking a prong collar on a stressed out, distracted dog in order to force an arbitrary obedience behavior such as heeling is an abomination. As I learn more about the benefits of positive clicker training I become more disturbed by the brutal methods I was taught 2-1/2 years ago, especially when our failures continue to be blamed on my lack of diligence in spending more time hurting my sweet dog.

But that is a departure from the heart of this thread. Fortunately Muttley was not really harmed and he may respond well to clicker training. I'm just not sure whether I should try to go it alone, or try individual or group lessons. Certainly there are some areas where Muttley could use improvement, although mostly I like him as he is.

[Nettle]

I think we have a far better chance of owning happy obliging well-mannered dogs if we ditch the idea that they should love us and do whatever we want to please us, their gods, that they adore (I once was asked by a behaviour client when her dog would begin to "adore" her ).

Above all, dogs want to feel safe, and to please themselves. If we arrange matters so that what pleases us brings them pleasure too, it works far better than thinking they will obey because they get pleasure from pleasing us.

They may or may not love us. What is love to a dog? I know I love mine completely, but that is my feeling for them, and I do not expect devotion from them (though they seem to love me also). I also respect them, and I think a lot of dogs get plenty of "love" but no respect.

This is a long way from clicker training - or maybe not so far.

[Cracker]

Muttley.
It is a really good idea to try to find a clicker trainer in your area to learn under, just be sure it is a clicker trainer and not a "balanced" one who uses all four quads of OC.

If you cannot find a true clicker trainer, I personally found "THe Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training" a godsend, especially in the beginning. It talks about the theory and science behind it in a clear, simple and concise manner and has lots of great exercises both for YOU alone and for you and your dog to work on to "get the hang of it".

The best thing about clicker training is that if you mess it up a bit at the beginning (clicking at the wrong time or accidentally), all it does is earn the dog a nibble and doesn't put you behind too far with the training, whereas punishing at the wrong time can really mess up a dog.

When I first started 2 years ago I had some friends online to help me but I still went off and tried to teach LLW right off the bat without starting out with more simple behaviours...it worked much faster than I had been achieving with other methods but I think I would have made more progress more quickly if I'd used the KISS principle (keep it simple silly).

So, it CAN be learned on your own, but there are great benefits with having someone help you get the hang of it so you don't get frustrated with your own self. Practicing timing, how to hold the clicker and treats and the leash and the toy and the whatever...lol.

My best purchase alongside my clicker was a waist leash that attached to my body so my hands were free for clicking and treating and also kept my "habit" of leash correcting from even being available to practice. Becoming a crossover trainer is hard (one who's moved from traditional or balanced training to total R+) and takes practice as well. But what a change in myself, my understanding of my dog AND for my Cracker.

We're still learning...always.

[Pawzk9]

[quote="Paul&Muttley"]From what I have read about positive methods, a +P correction may be effective if administered within one second of the behavior that is deemed undesirable. This is based on Victoria Stilwell's book IMOTD, page 66, in reference to timing. I certainly don't think corrections should be harsh and punishing, but a very mild signal to the dog, such as a "tsst", "uh-oh", or a quick touch to block a behavior provides needed feedback.

It may not be appropriate for dogs who are hand shy, fearful, and prone to shutting down, but may be what is needed for overly confident and bossy dogs (as Victoria describes Terriers on page 29.) I think this may be something to try in the case of the "red zone" dog who bites excessively and may not have learned bite inhibition as a puppy by +P corrections administered by the mother *****.

"TSST" and "Red Zone"? Methinks you have your TV trainer shows mixed up. I don't believe I've heard Victoria talk about "red zone" though I may have missed a show or two. And her interrupter is more like AH! than TSST!

The fact is, the overly confident and bossy dogs make stellar clicker dogs. Because A) you aren't fighting with them and creating more resistance and B) You are giving them choices and a reason that makes sense to them to do what you'd like them to do.

For most of the so-called "red zone" dogs, the reason they are biting is because they are way over-stimulated and the human is doing stupid stuff. Bite inhibition goes out the window when the dog is overly aroused, even if they learned it from their mammas. That's why CM gets bitten a lot and Victoria does not. Some of the dogs she works with are every bit as scary. But she doesn't allow herself to get engaged in battle with them. Instead she works to lower their level of stimulation and get them to thinking and controlling themselves. They don't appear to be as "bad" because she's not in there forcing them into biting her

[Pawzk9]

[quote="Cracker"]Muttley.
It is a really good idea to try to find a clicker trainer in your area to learn under, just be sure it is a clicker trainer and not a "balanced" one who uses all four quads of OC.


If memory serves, Paul's not that far away from Pat Miller, and I believe I suggested that to him at least a year ago.

[Noobs]

"TSST" and "Red Zone"? Methinks you have your TV trainer shows mixed up. I don't believe I've heard Victoria talk about "red zone" though I may have missed a show or two. And her interrupter is more like AH! than TSST!

To be fair, Paul&Muttley was only using "red zone" because the original OP used it, and several people already made comments to stop watching CM.

[Noobs]

Sorry, I mean the original OP used it in the "is my dog a red zone" thread elsewhere.

[Paul&Muttley]

Pat Miller is near Hagerstown, about 80 miles from me. I looked into her "Reactive Rover" weekend session, but (1) Muttley is not reactive, (2) $500 for 2-3 days intensive work seems excessive, and (3) I am not really physically up to that level of intensity. I'm sure she is one of the top trainers, but I don't think I need a new Lexus when an old Saturn will meet our needs.

There is a more local positive clicker trainer, Alisa Mills, who runs the http://www.yousillydog.com training school. I have already attended her initial class (before dogs are brought in) as well as a class with three other dogs where they were working on loose leash walking. Muttley was with me for both classes, and we were there as observers, but at least she knows both of us. She remarked that Muttley was the best behaved dog in her class, and that it appeared that we were too advanced for her beginning classes.

But I thought Muttley would really benefit from her "doggie socials", and we went to one about 5 weeks ago. It started out fine, but when all the dogs were unleashed, Muttley almost immediately attacked a young black male Lab who may have been overly submissive, and we were asked to leave. There is a more detailed discussion of this in my post on "Unexpected Aggression". So I don't know if we'd be welcomed back, except possibly for private lessons.

I don't know if she is good at what she does. The incident in her class came as a total surprise to her, and she had never seen anything like it in 6 years of experience.

My thought is that perhaps I should just get a clicker and start out with the basic exercises as presented in "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training" by Pamela Dennison. I got the book from the library and found it to be a good read. Any book with "Muttley Meanings" is a winner in my estimation. If I have problems, then perhaps I can contact Alisa for some guidance.

But my main problem continues to be the amount of time and energy I can (or am willing to) put into training my dog. I have many projects that I need to concentrate on, and I tend to get distracted by things so I never finish what I need to do. I know that dog training requires dedication and consistency, and I may not be able to offer that at this time. Besides, I am not trying to compete in any obedience contests, and most people who meet Muttley consider him well-behaved. So, honestly, I have little incentive to improve upon that. If it ain't broke, don't fix it...

[Cracker]

I'm glad you found the book interesting...
Just remember it doesn't have to be hours each day for training your Muttley!

Ten or fifteen minutes of working on something..anything! That may be fun for you both to get started is all that is needed.
Once I saw Cracker start to "get it" it became easier for me to fit in a session here and there. You don't have to teach fancy tricks or anything like that and I am one who can admit I could be doing LOTS more with Cracker if I had the time.

Because of her anxiety issues I am doing more of the clicking for calm and fun and easy games rather than difficult shaping or more advanced stuff. I still manage to find time to do a five minute session of something new here and there.

You can always use your local trainer for backup if you get stuck or do eventually decide to try some new things with him...and just because Muttley is no longer welcome at the socials doesn't mean he is no longer welcome in class...different situations, different distractions etc.

[Paul&Muttley]

I thought it interesting to read that in episode 304 of the Dog Whisperer, he dealt with a hyperactive Dalmation who had been adopted by a group of LA firefighters. He determined the problems with the dog stemmed from inconsistent application of rules and limits to his behavior, so he "trained" the people and "rehabbed" the dog.

But when they wanted to teach the dog to "stop, drop, and roll", for demonstrating this life-saving maneuver at schools, they enlist the help of a positive-based clicker trainer as being the most appropriate. So, perhaps certain alternate methods (not using a clicker) may be better for stopping unwanted and dangerous behavior, while we may all agree that positive clicker training probably works best for producing more specific and "shaped" behaviors such as competitive obedience training, agility, "tricks", etc.

Overall, I think the most important thing is the groundwork to build a mutual feeling of trust and a calm aura of confidence and lack of stress to allow learning to take place.

[Maxy24]

So, perhaps certain alternate methods (not using a clicker) may be better for stopping unwanted and dangerous behavior, while we may all agree that positive clicker training probably works best for producing more specific and "shaped" behaviors such as competitive obedience training, agility, "tricks", etc.

That depends on how you want to go about stopping the dog's unwanted behavior. I usually try my hardest to train an incompatible behavior. Dog can't jump all over visitors if he's sitting or standing on his mat. I could clicker train that. Dog can't attack or bark at another dog or person if he's looking at me during the walk. I can clicker train that. I prefer to train out the bad behavior, not just punish the dog until he's too afraid to do the behavior he wants to do. The only punishment I'll use is negative punishment, I am willing to remove attention, the chance of getting a treat, fun (if we were playing I'll stop), access to a person or dog etc. But I will not hit, yell at, collar pop, "alpha roll" or otherwise hurt or scare the dog. I will interrupt and prevent so that the dog has to choose what i want and gives up on what he wants (for instance body clocking). but i can always be looking for him to do the right alternative that I can click and reward. I would not punish a dog for snapping at strangers, I would click him for looking at them, sniffing them, or otherwise being good and calm around them. So I would use clicker training to train out behaviors by training in alternatives while preventing the "bad" behavior from being rehearsed.

[Pawzk9]

[quote="Paul&Muttley"]I thought it interesting to read that in episode 304 of the Dog Whisperer, he dealt with a hyperactive Dalmation who had been adopted by a group of LA firefighters. He determined the problems with the dog stemmed from inconsistent application of rules and limits to his behavior, so he "trained" the people and "rehabbed" the dog.

But when they wanted to teach the dog to "stop, drop, and roll", for demonstrating this life-saving maneuver at schools, they enlist the help of a positive-based clicker trainer as being the most appropriate. So, perhaps certain alternate methods (not using a clicker) may be better for stopping unwanted and dangerous behavior, while we may all agree that positive clicker training probably works best for producing more specific and "shaped" behaviors such as competitive obedience training, agility, "tricks", etc.

Naw. More likely he just doesn't know how to train a dog. I've seen much better results on dangerous behaviors with a clicker and temporary management than with force. In fact, force frequently escalates the problem