To click or not to click, that is the question

[Cracker]

That's what I thought at first too Paul.
I am part of an extended "family" of folks who have and who work with aggressive and reactive dogs..and each and every one of them have had great success using clicker training to modify behaviour.

Some of the best books describing the use of a clicker for BM are
Scaredy Dog by Ali Brown
Click to Calm by Emma Parsons
Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt

So, as much as shaping "trick" behaviours is easier with clicker training than other methods it is also very effective in rehabbing fear, anxiety and aggression!

[Paul&Muttley]

Well, I admit I have a lot to learn, and I will soon try the clicker I bought last night at PetSmart. They have a special clicker class that requires only basic obedience as a prerequisite, so it might be worth trying. For Muttley, at least, I agree that a clicker is certainly the way to go.

But, what to do about other dogs who are aggressive toward you and yours? Saturday night I was having dinner with some friends, and my friend John said he was hiking in a public area with a female friend and her little dog. They saw three Golden retrievers and a yellow Lab running off-leash, probably on adjoining private property, and the dogs became excited and ran toward them. They attempted to retreat back toward the car, but were met and surrounded by the dogs. His friend picked up her dog, but one of the dogs lunged and seriously bit her dog. John jabbed at the attacking Goldens with his hiking stick, and eventually they backed off. The Lab did not participate in the attack, and eventually the owners casually called their dogs and got out of there, leaving them with a bleeding dog requiring $400 in vet expenses.

On another recent occasion, he was walking on the C&O canal after canoeing when some guy approached walking a pit bull. Another hiker approached the dog and they exchanged greetings in a friendly manner. But then the dog suddenly lunged at him and he backed away just in time to avoid having his face ripped off, and the dog clamped down on his life jacket, completely destroying part of it. The guy yanked his dog back forcefully before it could do any more damage, and casually said, "Oh, sorry", and continued on his way.

Of course, these were other peoples' dogs, and obviously they were poorly trained or maybe even encouraged to be aggressive. So obviously a clicker is not going to do any good in such situations. Maybe this is a subject for another thread, but what is the proper way to deal with such dogs, when you are on the receiving end of an attack? I suggested a stout stick that could be used to block the dog's attack, and possibly stun the dog with a blow to the head. This is no time for ignoring behavior and turning ones back. It may also be a good idea to carry a good hunting knife and be prepared to disable the dog with a properly placed wound in the neck. I hate to bring up such awful ideas, especially on Easter, but good advice in such cases may save the life of someone's dog, or even themselves or a human loved one.

[Nettle]

P&M, I said in another thread that my biggest problem with dog ownership is attacks from other dogs

I am very pro-active, and am always "reading the walk" well ahead, so when I see a problem approaching or what I call a 'flashpoint' ie a narrow area, blind corner, person approaching with another dog that I can see isn't under control (most of them ) I am prepared, my dogs are at heel behind me, and my body is between them and the other dog(s). I teach my students this too.

Obviously in a multiple-dog attack you can't always be in the right place, but you can do your best. This includes having your dog in a position where it can run away (presuming it's a safe place off the lead). If on-lead, you must always have your body in the way of the other dog. It is important NOT to make your dog sit or give it other commands which might distract it so that it cannot repel the attacking dog. This means in the case of an actual attack as distinct from your dog reacting to another dog, in which case sit-and-treat is good as long as you can keep your dog safe.


To the other dog you give BIIIIG body language: shoulders back, eyes hard, whip up the power in your solar plexus (CM is right with this when he says "raise your power") imagine an orange ball of flames spinning at your middle and send it to the other dog, sounds kooky I know but it works.

Carry a walking stick, but use it to trip an attacking dog rather than hitting it, and wear the kind of coat you can whip off in a moment so that if one dog gets hold of another you can drop the coat over their heads. I unzip my coat ready if I see trouble ahead: holding the sides out like batwings enlarges my presence (I'm 5' 4").

Never use a knife (here in UK there are severe penalties even for carrying a little pocket knife) it is too risky. Don't get your hands anywhere near the sharp ends: push the dogs apart with your legs.

Don't use your voice: it winds the dogs up more, not to mention the owners. Be silent, wade in there, get your dog to safety and get a lead round the other dog's neck (just loop it round). Make sure the other owner has proper hold of their dog before you let it go.

Most of the time if you read the walk you can avoid these situations, but when it happens (I suffered a multiple-dog attack just before Christmas) keep silent, move fast and above all protect your own dog without risking your hands (someone has to drive home).

I hope you never need to use this information.

[Pawzk9]

But, what to do about other dogs who are aggressive toward you and yours? (snip)
Of course, these were other peoples' dogs, and obviously they were poorly trained or maybe even encouraged to be aggressive. So obviously a clicker is not going to do any good in such situations. Maybe this is a subject for another thread, but what is the proper way to deal with such dogs, when you are on the receiving end of an attack? I suggested a stout stick that could be used to block the dog's attack, and possibly stun the dog with a blow to the head. This is no time for ignoring behavior and turning ones back. It may also be a good idea to carry a good hunting knife and be prepared to disable the dog with a properly placed wound in the neck. I hate to bring up such awful ideas, especially on Easter, but good advice in such cases may save the life of someone's dog, or even themselves or a human loved one.

I try not to take my dogs to places where there's a history of a lot of off-leash aggressive dogs. My dogs do know a cue to "get behind" (Emma Parsons calls it "Kiss My Butt" and stay there. I'm not sure how a "clicker" factors into this situation - (except of course to have taught YOUR dog to get behind.)
There's a product that used to be called Direct Stop (now I think it is called Spray Shield) which is a small aerosol can which delivers a blast of citornella. It's harmless, and doesn't involve carving up the approaching dog, but I understand it's quite effective at stopping their approach or breaking up fights. I have a can but knock wood, I haven't had to use it.

[Cracker]

Lots of good advice here.
Yes, a clicker for TRAINING the behaviours you need (Kiss my butt, I like that!) is helpful as it is a training tool..not a 'defensive" tool..lol.

I also agree with not becoming vocal..screaming and yelling will only escalate a situation. Though there are times if you use your "big calm" voice to tell an approaching dog to "SIT" you would be surprised to see that many of them WILL.

I usually recommend getting in front of your dog and if it is a safe area to drop the leash, step towards the approaching dog and be "big" as well...

BTW..I would be dropping off the copy of the vet bill to the owners of the dog's (since they know where they live) for the damage inflicted on their little dog.

Here in Ontario if your dog damages ANYTHING (including muddying someones good pants) you are liable for the amount of repair, replacement etc. Often if a "scuffle" happens at the dog park where everyone is off leash the owners will split the costs....

Please remember if you have a little dog that picking it up is OFTEN the worst thing you can do (I do realize of course that sometimes it is ALL that you can do, depending on the situation) and that by picking it up you are increasing the chances of the larger dog jumping up and getting YOU AND YOUR DOG even if the dog was originally not planning on a bite.

[maximoo]

OP here. To summarize what everyone's seems to be saying about whether to click or not to click is:
it depends on what behavior you want, or problem the dog is having, the temperment of the dog, and if the trainer is going to be consistant in using it correctly. It is not necessary for everything you want dog to learn. However if used early many problems can be prevented. So that's why VS sometimes clicker trains and sometimes she doesn't.
Sounds reasonable/logical. If I missed anything, do share.

[Pawzk9]

OP here. To summarize what everyone's seems to be saying about whether to click or not to click is:
it depends on what behavior you want, or problem the dog is having, the temperment of the dog, and if the trainer is going to be consistant in using it correctly.

I would say it doesn't really matter what behavior you want, or what problem the dog is having. It's very effective for tricks and important, potentially life-saving behaviors. For sports stuff and for fixing behavior problems. It certainly doesn't depend on the temperament of the dog, because soft dogs blossom with confidence from clicker training and harder dogs are thrilled to understand that there's really something "in it for them" if they cooperate. It does, of course matter if the trainer is going to be consistent and use it correctly. That goes for any training method.

It is not necessary for everything you want dog to learn.

It's not "necessary" but it is likely that the dog will learn faster and more thoroughly with the precise communication it allows.

However if used early many problems can be prevented. So that's why VS sometimes clicker trains and sometimes she doesn't.
Sounds reasonable/logical. If I missed anything, do share.

I sure think it would provide some good clear structure, and mental stimulation for the dog you have described owning. You really should learn from someone who is good at it, and give it a try