Please Help!

[Rick]

Hello all,

Thank you in advance for your time and any consideration to my post. Any help would be greatly appreciate, I am desperate.

My wife and I are about to have our first child (April 5th is the due date!). We are very excited, but we are having great difficulty in agreeing on how to handle a dog issue. In short, my wife's parents own two dogs, Mia and Copper. Copper is gentle and calm but Mia is another story. She is agressive towards other dogs (they can't take her to any public place where there may be another dog for fear of an attack) and people (growls, doesn't bite, and her hair is always on end when another dog, or a stranger, is around), exhibits jealous behavior (she pushes Copper out of the way if you try and pet her and anytime Copper has a toy, Mia takes it from her), tears up my wife's belongings (the ones that are left at her parents) when no one is home, completely lacks any discipline, etc (the list goes on and on). We want our baby to be able to spend time with her grandparents, but I am absolutely terrified at the notion of leaving my baby around the dog (I can't sleep at night, the anxiety is making me sick).

The parents, and my wife, are very emotionally attached to the dog, and I fear that their emotions are clouding their rational thought process (they always have an excuse for her misbehavior, its always either the other person's fault, or the other dog's fault, or the squirrel's fault for running across the yard, which got caught by the dog and ripped to pieces, despite my wife's attempts to stop the dog). They ensure that they will lock the dog away when the baby is there; for one, I've read that this can make the situation worse, and two, if they are only doing this only to appease me (which, by the way, they suggested this approach), then they don't believe that there is an issue, and that is what worries me the most. Also, is it realistic to think that they will be able to prevent the dog from ever being around our child? I find that hard to believe. My wife insists that Mia will listen to her, but this never the case.

My mother-in-law has told me before that Mia can't be trusted around little kids and has to put the dog in another room when they have company with kids (she is only one that has ever shown any kind of sense when it comes to the dog)!

I am absolutely at a loss, I don't know what to do. I asked my wife to consider getting rid of the dog, big mistake. I am now a dog-hating, un-compassionate, terrible person, but I really only want to protect my baby.

Any suggestions on how to handle the issue would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you sincerely,

Rick

[gwd]

take a deep breath, exhale, and again...........

ok, first of all, you're a soon to be new parent and we're designed to protect our progeny and look for danger. it's perfectly normal and natural.

secondly, i don't think you're a dog hating terrible person. in fact, i think you're being quite reasonable. anytime you mix babies and dogs it's an unknown. babies are weird, smelly little creatures that make jerky movements and stress out, sleep deprived adults.

i don't think you'd be this stressed if you felt like you were getting some buy in from the rest of the family members and have them share your concern. since you don't live with your in-laws i don't see any reason to have them re-home their dog. which, lets be honest, given what you've said about mia, it would be euthanasia rather than re-homing, because seriously, there would not a lot of people lining up to adopt her.

i do think that you have every right in the world to insist that the dog be confined in a crate, behind a gate, in another room when the baby is visiting. your wife is naive in her thinking that she's going to be able to magically be able to verbally protect the baby.

i hate to add to your worries, but babies that don't move around much (pre crawling stage) generally don't worry dogs too much. often people get lulled into thinking it's all good and the dog is fine with the baby.......then comes the crawling and toddling stage and all of a sudden the baby is mobile, or in one of those scary (to many dogs) walker apparatus thingies. ......if they've been slipping on the confinement, this is likely when there could be an accident. ........

dogs and toddlers are dicey even with well behaved, well adjusted dogs that are not raised with kids.......

i'm sure i've done nothing to help ease your mind and perhaps made it worse..........but you've got to make sure the rest of the family takes your concerns seriously because they are valid and i totally understand that your biggest worry (as would be mine) is that they're not seeing the potential for danger and that they're just paying lip service to assuage your fears........leaves you to wonder how things will be managed if the wife visits without you being there.........


edit: it occured to me that my post should come with a disclaimer. i realize that all of our responses are colored by personal experience and it's only fair to share with you that my son was bitten by a dog that we owned when he was 2 years old. the dog in question was a finished champion (well socialized) and had an obedience degree. he wasn't aggressive to other dogs (didn't want to play with them but wouldn't seek out a fight) and tolerated people. my son was raised to not ever mess with the dogs so he didn't harrass them and i didn't ever let them be together unattended. my dog didn't like my son from the moment we brought him home from the hosptial. he'd leave the room with a heavy slgh, flop on the bed in the other room every time my husband (his beloved person), held his infant son.

the bite happend one day when my son walked by the dog .......no harrasing or teasing......wasn't even moving towards the dog. his entire eyelid was hanging on by less than an 1/8 of an inch.

[Nettle]

Thank you thank you for thinking this through and I too feel that your concerns are sensible. Dogs - even well-adjusted dogs - and babies are not a match made in heaven. It shouldn't take a tragedy to get this across to your wife and inlaws, but it's clear that you are the only person able to see this issue rationally. For now.

It is unreasonable to expect the inlaws to rehome one/both dogs; it IS reasonable for them to come to your home without the dogs or for you all to meet on neutral ground again with no dogs, once baby is born. How far you get with this on a 1 against 3 basis I don't know. But as gwd says, it isn't so much now that there is an issue: it's months and (sorry) YEARS down the line - because reactive dogs and children just do not mix. Shutting the dogs away is reasonable on management terms but experience teaches me that one day it 'accidentally' won't be done. And of course it doesn't just mean shutting the dogs away, but shutting them away after a good long walk, and with plenty to occupy them. Somehow I get the feeling this won't be done either, but if I am mistaken, a huge apology. Which is why IME the safest way is to keep away from the inlaws' home, and meet instead as suggested. Can you do that for years? Probably not.

As it is clear that no work will be done to make the reactive dog feel more secure, and you seem to be the only person aware of what is a very real danger, you have a big task ahead. The dogs cannot help being what they are, and babies cannot help being what they are either.

I can train dogs: people are far harder. I can only hope that your wife listens to you, and also that she gets a massive shot of protective hormones with the birth, which makes her more aware of the danger she would be putting the baby in.


I'm sorry there is no easy fix (apart from keeping away). I'm being realistic. The reality is that your child would be at risk, and so would the dogs - because once the child has been hurt it is for life, and once the dogs have hurt a child, it is their death warrant.

It has really upset me to have to write this. Please do not take it as anything else than meant with my best intentions and given from a lot of experience.

[Rick]

Dear GWD and Nettle,

Thank you for your insight.

Everything you have said makes perfect sense to me, unfortunately, my wife does not see it that way. She insists that we are categorizing the dog without knowing the individual. Again, her emotional attachment is lending to unreasonable rational. I am in no way an expert on animal behavior, but my thought is that, although the dog is part of the family, it is still a dog, and although it is an individual dog, it still relies on instinct to drive its behavior.

She has read my post and the responses. She insists that I have given a bias description (which led to bias replies) of the dog and has taken great offense to the entire thread.

I think that I may have to just let it go. I don't know what else to do, and the argument is putting a huge strain on our marriage.

Does anyone know of a professional service that I could reach out to? Perhaps someone that could visit with us and the dog so that they could form an opinion without my input.

Thank you,

Rick

[WufWuf]

This is a very difficult situation for you all .

Even without knowing anything about the dogs involved I'm just not a fan of dogs and very small children spending time together. A dog should never be allowed around a crawling bady or a toddler without some kind of barrier seperating them. This goes for ALL dogs and not just ones who've shown reactive behaviour. Even older children should not be left unsupervised around dogs either.

Dogs are predators and so often humans forget that or simply want to ignore it and make dogs into disney creatures who only want to love everyone. There has just been an incident in the U.K where a 14 year old girl was killed by a group of dogs. These were dogs she knew, not a wild gang of dogs roaming the street but the dogs of a friend of her's who she was staying with.

Even placid good natured dogs will attack a squealing/screaming animal (why do you think they like squeaky toys so much) it's just part of their programming.

[ClareMarsh]

Hi there I really feel for you.

I have an almost 2 year old male chihuahua, he is well socialised, very friendly to everyone and well trained. I also have an almost 4 month old niece.

It has taken 4 months to get to the point where I can let Ted into the room that my niece is in and be confident that he will not jump on her in excitement. That is not to say I thought he would hurt her or even that I really thought he would jump on her, just that I knew he could and with a baby and a dog unless you are 100% confident why take risks. I have been working with him initially on a lead, then in a harness that I could grab if needs be.

We see the baby about once a week and I have trained Ted in terms of what I expect him to do when she is there. He now knows to sniff then come back to me for a treat. I still don't let other people have him in the room unless I am there because they don't know him like I do and he is my responsibility. Also I find that the way people act and talk around babies gets dogs a little nuts (high squeaky voices, rocking and bouncing the baby) and I need to be there to remove Ted if he is getting overexcited or to calm the people down Strangely I find it the easiest when I have the baby and the dog and no one else around

When she starts toddling the rules will change again.

So I have a well trained, very friendly, easy going dog and I will say even then you need to be on your toes with dogs and babies. So I would suggest the above for Copper who you describe as relaxed and calm. Some dogs are just great with babies and then you can relax a bit more but honestly I'd always want a dog under physical control as well as being calm when around a baby for the first time.

Where are you Rick, just in terms of seeing if anyone knows a third party near you who might be able to help you?

[OnceInAWeil]

Rick,

Victoria Stilwell has certified Positively dog trainers both in the US and UK. http://positively.com/dog-training/trainersearch/


ANY dog should be carefully managed around children, even ClareMarsh's Ted, who has a great track record for being sweet and even-tempered. It would help us help you if your wife could give us her description of Mia's behavior.

[gwd]

She has read my post and the responses. She insists that I have given a bias description (which led to bias replies) of the dog and has taken great offense to the entire thread.

if you had described her in the most glowing terms ......if she was a saint on four paws and a paragon of patience, my advice would not differ greatly and that would be baby should be very closely guarded.........especially when it becomes mobile. toddlers and young children unnerve dogs. they squeal, they move fast, and from a dogs perspective, they are unpredictable.

you've come to a forum where most of us have devoted our lives to dogs......we love them like family members, we feed them better than we feed ourselves in most cases (hell, i'm not getting organic turkey), and those of us who have had years of experience in reading dogs and their body language are STILL ever so careful anytime our dogs are anywhere near a child.........even if mia was a perfect angel i'd want them to be separated for the most part. it's just not worth the risk.

I think that I may have to just let it go. I don't know what else to do, and the argument is putting a huge strain on our marriage.

i can't speak to your specific situation, but some battles are worth fighting........imo, this is one of them. it would be a far bigger strain on your marriage if something tragic were to happen. .........

[lucyandbella]

I am a crazy dog obsessed person with 2 dogs I am very attached to...and yet I wouldn't let either near an infant. My "nice" dog is allowed around children 5 and older who can reasonably follow directions. But I still put her away if I can't watch her constantly and read her body language around children. This weekend when my cousins year old baby is over she won't even be allowed around it. She is a herding dog and you can bet her instinct when she sees a crawling or walking toddler is to chase. I wouldn't put her at risk of even nipping a child because it would be a death sentence but also because of the damage she could do. My other dog is fear aggressive she is either behind a baby gate or in a crate. If children of a certain age are over who can't follow directions yet I even shut her in a room and lock the door (children could slip their hands through the baby gate or crate and get bit, and I worry they might open the door and let her out which is why I lock it). When I have to let her out to go to the bathroom or I'm going to take her out back to play or go on a walk she is leashed no matter what. So she is either on a leash or put away, she is never allowed to be free roaming around children, even older children.

I love my dogs, but I respect they are dogs with drive and in ones case behavioral issues. Putting my dogs away is not mean, it keeps them safe and children safe (also it doesnt make the worse around children at all, I know that was a fear of yours...though I also leave them with stuff to do like frozen kongs to eat). I also make sure they have plenty of physical and mental stimulation on these days.

I urge you to read through all these blog entries, this woman devotes her life to child and dog safety and has some great ideas and information. It also has info on how you can also teach your child how to act around dogs starting at a young age, so when they are toddlers they don't run up to a dog and try to hug it when it wants no part of it. Here is the link: http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.com/blog/

And lastly, I don't want to be a fear-monger but it seems like your family is not willing to really see the dangers of a dog and child being together. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the dogs need to be rehomed or anything, I'm going to have more than one dog when I have children some day. But in order to see what can go wrong I encourage you to visit this site:http://www.liamjperkfoundation.org/. This family lost their son after the family dog gave one warning bite. The dog didn't maul him, he just told him in dog language "you aren't listening to my warnings, I said leave me alone". It was one quick snap but unfortunately was a freak accident, the dog bit the child's neck and it killed the little boy. I don't share this to scare you more but to show that there is a reason why people are encouraging your family to separate the dogs from the baby. I love my dogs, but they will never be allowed around a toddler or baby ever, even my own when I have children. They will be separated by a barrier, or at the very least be on leash.

[gwd]

I am a crazy dog obsessed person with 2 dogs I am very attached to...

exactly! this forum exists because we love and adore our dogs.......want the best for them and we come here not only to help others navigate their issues, but also for ideas, tips, suggestions on how to enrich our dogs lives......we chat about games to play with dogs that we might not have thougth about, learn about dog sports that we didnt know much about (i never knew anything about sledding or scootering before reading it here)

and if WE, people who place such value on dogs, are suggesting to keep both baby and dog safe by separating......then there has to be the benefit of the doubt that we're not seeing danger ahead because we have a bias against mia. quite the opposite......we want to see mia live out her natural life and not lose it because she was being a dog and told the baby off!

And lastly, I don't want to be a fear-monger

nor did i............i was the first to answer and i weighed my response carefully. i also thought it fair to add the disclaimer that i've seen first hand what can happen in a heartbeat. ......i was a few feet away when my son was bitten. i was monitoring. my dog gave a warning growl and a quick nip .......because his aim was at my sons face and happened to catch his eyelid was unfortunate. .......i can't tell you the pain of holding your young toddler and seeing his eyelid hanging on by a thread.........it's heartbreaking. luckily, his sight wasn't damaged but that was not known for a few weeks.

you've all seen the elizabethan collars (or the cone as some call it) that we put on dogs to keep them from bothering stitches...........well, esentially i had to do the same thing on my son. to keep him from touching the stitches from his surgery, we had to cut the bottoms out of cardboard pringles cans and use diaper pins to secure them to his shirt........ the cardboard prevented his arms from bending. he had to be 'robo-baby' for 16 days ........the only time i could remove the tubes was to give him a sponge bath.



rick, ive thought about this all last night and this morning.........and you've mentioned it's causing a fight. i can't wrap my head around WHY this is a fight. .........people draw lines in the sand for battles that matter or if losing the battle means losing something important.

this is where i'm baffled...........EVEN if your wife doesn't agree. EVEN if she doesn't feel there is a huge risk........why is this a hill worth dying on for her? where is the harm of erring on the side of caution even if she feels the risk is low? i'm NOT suggesting you euthanasia the dog. ........i'm only saying that each and every family member should take a solemn vow, on bended knee to commit to keeping dog and child separate. ......why does she feel this is too much to give on? ......what 'loss' or benefit does she feel she's giving up?

[Nettle]

I would like to emphasise that my comments apply to any dog and any baby. Any dog can be a risk to a baby/child. ANY dog, no matter how sweet, how smart, well-trained or well-adjusted. Even non-reactive kindly dogs can still injure a baby/child.

Dogs are our friends, our companions, whatever we make them - but crucially they are ANIMALS not little fuzzy people. Come to think of it, there are a lot of people I wouldn't want near a baby/child either.

[Ari_RR]

Well, yeah, I agree with the points that have been made above.

But, that said, my guess is that when/if the baby is introduced to the dog(s) - it will be under tight supervision, and all it will take is just one growly moment to convince everyone around that dogs and babies don't always mix well. So, my take - it's a while before this issue will really come up, things may well settle down and resolve themselves when everyone is calm and rational, and probably the last days before the baby arrives are stressful enough and bring up anything but rational thinking in everyone.

[Rick]

Thank you all for your thoughts and comments. Still struggling

[jacksdad]

Rick, I don't know if your wife is open to reading new posts, but if she is......

Dear Rick's wife.

Please, please accept/trust/believe we absolutely get that Mia is an individual. that there is more to her than just the small portion of her that Rick is concerned about. BUT that part of her is something to be VERY concerned about even IF there wasn't a baby on the way. But you do have a baby on the way and it is often situation like that cause people to finally acknowledge their dog needs help. People often talk them self out of the fact their dog needs help because they aren't sure what to do, who to trust etc.

I also have a dog that struggles with encountering new people, new dogs and even seeing a child playing at a distance....or used to. that is right used to. While I would NEVER consider him "baby safe", he can now walk past kids playing the park and not lunge or bark or look like he will attack. Same for 95% of dogs he encounters and he improves ever day with his adult people skills. Just last weekend he was at a event with people he has never seen before or meet and was going around asking for pets and attention. It has taken 3 + years, but complete strangers are FINALLY getting to see the dog I have known for the past 3 + years.

when I first got him he would completely flip out and looked like he wanted to attack you or the other dog. he made horrible noises, wasn't just barking and growling. he would pull and lunge on leash and sometimes even ended up flopping around trying to get at the unknown person or dog. that was his "public image", an out of control vicious dog.

At home, in doors. just me and my wife. he was a love bug. gentle, loved to just cuddle, be held (odd for a dog), petted, belly rubbed, AMAZING bit control/inhibition during play. But it was rare that teeth ever got evolved. basically a dr jekyll and mr hyde situation. what people saw in public and what I knew in doors complete 180 difference. BUT even still, he is not, will not be baby safe.

We get that it's probably the same situation with Mia. There is more to her than just Rick's concerns. But it is just as important that you and your parents view Mia as a complete individual as well. Even if you do nothing else except keep Mia and Cooper separate from your baby, that simple step will prevent a lot of heartache should the worst case happen because too much trust was placed into a dog that is probably scare of new things.

I urge you to please step back and give this some honest and open thought.

[emmabeth]

You have had some great advice from the others, I just want to clarify a few things really.


No one here, at all, will tell you that unwanted or unpleasant behaviour from any dog, is ever 'the dogs fault' - now that isn't passing the buck or making excuses at all, in any way - what it IS is recognising that a dog IS a dog and can only behave like a dog.

She can only think like a dog, communicate like a dog and react like a dog - if some part of her behaviour is unpleasant or poses a threat to someone (be that another dog or a person), then it is up to a human to sort it out, passing blame around is a pointless waste of time!

Some dogs do learn to behave in ways we do not like, or we find dangerous - but this is never something the dog consciously thought up in a bid to be the worlds most obnoxious dog!

To me, Mia sounds as if she is VERY anxious and insecure and she has learned that to keep herself safe, to protect her resources, she HAS to behave the way she does or something dreadful will happen to her.

It doesn't really matter why that has happened but it IS important to recognise that this dog is at times, not a happy girlie, and she needs some space and careful management, not just so that she doesn't do anyone any harm, but so that SHE can unwind and get rid of some of her stress.

Meeting a new baby for her would be very stressful, because babies are unpredictable, can make some ear splitting noises, they won't respond to her language the way she expects (ie, a growl wouldn't make a crawling baby back off and of course a newborn can do very little at ALL).

Now your job is to figure out a way of getting people to realise that having Mia near the baby would be unkind and unpleasant to Mia, as WELL as potentially being dangerous for the baby.

That means NOT saying things like 'that dog MUST go'.. because that just gets peoples backs up and makes them dig their heels in more!

I would instead suggest that Mia spends time in another room when the baby visits, chewing on a really great toy she ONLY gets when that happens - so that baby time becomes time for Mia to get a treat. (and, conveniently be safely out of the way).

I do wish you luck but I think (and hope) that when your baby is born, your wifes naturally protective instincts will kick in and she will realise the danger fairly fast.