On going aurgument about Dominance

[Kittylove5]

Well, the Dominance thread as been locked and I cannot make a post about the conflicting conversations I have with a friend about the issue of dominance.

His theory is dominance is everywhere, all animals have dominance issues even humans. (Bears make themselves taller or bigger to show who is better, Monkeys like to puff themselves up and make lots of noises and or bluff. Deer show off there Antlers

Dominance to him is, territory wise shows dominance, dogs are territorial and there for are showing dominance. Humans are dominant he says we are always out trying to prove one another who is better even if it means hurting someone just to prove it. We are always competing and we are territorial as well, taking land, property and keeping others away from it.

In Its Me or the Dog episode where a TV star had four dogs and four cats and a baby. She had two dogs that Victoria had explained they were competing and taking turns peeing on things, would you call this being dominant?

In the Dog Whisperer he agreed with Cesar Milan about how this Chihuahua was being "Dominant" over his owner and everyone who enters and goes near his owner. He wouldn't let anyone pet him except for the owner, he wouldn't let anyone get into her bed. So he was being protective from my understanding but to Cesar he was making his owner his property and therefore is being a little dominant tyrant.

I know there is a line drown on dominance but isn't there also different kind of dominance for instance, when Cesar talks about it, it's as if he was comparing dogs to wolves.

Pack leaders and such are often used as well with dominance which is to me a load of horse poop. Since when do you see a bunch of stray dogs run around in a group together to find food and shelter? None unless it was a mother with her puppies trying to find food and shelter and usually after the puppies have grown momma dog usually doesn't want anything to do with puppies after that. I always felt that dogs were loners, it isn't called a dog eat dog world for nothing..

In a Pack of wolves you have Alpha male and Alpha female, both do things that make them have dominance in a pack, I have heard that both Alpha male and female are the only ones that pee with their leg in the air and any wolf caught doing this would be punished by the leader. Also, from a lot of people who studied wolves also stated tat Leaders are the most vocal and any wolf caught howling like it's the leader would be punished by the leader by making the wolf submit.

Alpha rolling shows dominance but never has anyone seen another dog try to alpha roll any other dog or person onto heir backs and make them submissive

When a dog pees with its It's leg in the air, you don't see another dog try and attack it because it's "trying to be an Alpha dog".

So basically his views are dogs can show dominance because everyone can, also dogs are like wolves, dingos foxes, ect but more domesticated so dominance doesn't show as much.

Can dogs show dominance or is it a load of horse poop?

Sorry if I gone off te subject a little in this post but every time I hear someone talking about Dominance and pack leaders I think of Alpha female and males and wolves.


Oy

[Nettle]

Most of the studies on wolves are sheer bunkum. They were done on captive wolves in an artificial environment. Most early animal studies across the board were done by male scientists. Male humans are big on dominance. The rest of the natural world doesn't give a flying one.

However we retain the myth that all animal social groups have a "leader" which goes in front and gets the best of everything and all the others kowtow to HIM. Men like that idea a LOT.

Mother Nature is far cuter than that.

Nature likes a wide gene pool. Males are little but inseminators - territory is held by family groups. Males fight for the right to mate, but the female chooses the mate. Females in social groups mate with several males and in the more modern wolf studies, it has been noted that the in-season she-wolf mates with all the males. Biology means she can hold to several different sires and her pups will therefore be created from the healthiest sperm.


Social groups need to survive. For that, every team member has his and her place and makes his/her contribution. Big manes/teeth are only important in fights, and fights are there to weed out the weaklings. Not the subordinate but the physically weak. In social animal groups, the young eat first and get protected first because they are the future survival of the pack/herd/flock/school/sounder etc.

Men find this sort of study painful. They like their idea of the big strong DOMINANT leader. We tend to let them get on with it but in animal training it is a very foolish idea to cling to.

Ask any huntsman which hound is the 'leader of the pack' and he'll laugh - because there isn't one. Each works to its own strengths for the ultimate goal.

Yes you get 'top dogs' in a social group of dogs, but they are not dominant, they don't go first eat first or any other cockamamie idea. They are simply the best dog for the job. And in a mixed-sex group - they are almost always female

Truly 'alpha' dogs (for want of a better term) never show any signs of being 'dominant'. They don't have to.

[Mattie]

That is a really good post Nettle

A lot depends on how you interpret the word "Dominant", ask several people what it means and they will all tell you something different.

His theory is dominance is everywhere, all animals have dominance issues even humans. (Bears make themselves taller or bigger to show who is better, Monkeys like to puff themselves up and make lots of noises and or bluff. Deer show off there Antlers

Why do bears make themselves taller or bigger, monkeys puff themselves up etc? To me this is because there is a threat to either them or their young, pack etc and has nothing to do with dominance but has a lot to do with fear, the fear of being attacked, youngsters killed etc.

Animals will protect their territory as will humans, our homes are our castles, again this isn't dominance but a threat to us. Animals need their territory to survive, it is where all their food is, without food they will die and so will their species. I love my territory because it is a place to relax and do what I want without any interference from anyone. If I want to dance or do housework naked I can.

In Its Me or the Dog episode where a TV star had four dogs and four cats and a baby. She had two dogs that Victoria had explained they were competing and taking turns peeing on things, would you call this being dominant?

Without more information I can only guess what is happening but no, this isn't dominance but again more fear or insecurity. They are peeing on things to make their own for their security, it makes them feel safe because others can smell that it is their's.

In the Dog Whisperer he agreed with Cesar Milan about how this Chihuahua was being "Dominant" over his owner and everyone who enters and goes near his owner. He wouldn't let anyone pet him except for the owner, he wouldn't let anyone get into her bed. So he was being protective from my understanding but to Cesar he was making his owner his property and therefore is being a little dominant tyrant.

Resource guarding his owner, resource guarding is based on fear not dominance, fear of loosing his owner.

A true wild pack of dogs are not dogs that have joined together, they are a family pack were each dog has its own job to do. Although mum won't want anything to do with their pups when the get to a certain age, these pups are still part of the pack but are sent away from mum to become more independent and learn how to help the survival of the pack. Often you will see the teenagers helping to look after the pups as nursemaids or feeding them.

How many litters of pups that are born often depends on how good the food source is, it is the survival of the fittest, only the fittest dogs are bred from.

I have a pack of 6 dogs, there is a leader for most things but not everything, it depends on how high a dog puts onto things if they lead in that or not. My Greyhound has the sofa as very high, other dogs are allowed on but there has to be enough room for him.

As Nettle said, men love the idea of being boss of everything, they love others to do as they are told, men tell, women ask which is why women always get more done with a better attitude than men do.

[mum24dog]

Most of the studies on wolves are sheer bunkum. They were done on captive wolves in an artificial environment. Most early animal studies across the board were done by male scientists. Male humans are big on dominance. The rest of the natural world doesn't give a flying one.

However we retain the myth that all animal social groups have a "leader" which goes in front and gets the best of everything and all the others kowtow to HIM. Men like that idea a LOT.

.....

Men find this sort of study painful. They like their idea of the big strong DOMINANT leader. We tend to let them get on with it

You've got men sussed, haven't you?

To be fair though, there are women who think the same way but I find they are often the ones who seem to feel a need to exercise control over their dogs because of a lack of control over some aspect of their own lives.
Same reason as men I guess.
And I also know people of both genders who show true leadership without giving so much as a passing thought to proving that they dominate their dogs.

Pam

[Nettle]

Yes. I apologise for the sweeping sexist statement

[Mattie]

It is a majority of men while a minority of women.

[muddyfloors]

I'm definitely the leader of this pack. My husband is a big mush!

[Kittylove5]

Thanks for your opinions guys, I like your perspective on this.

Nettle when you mentioned hunting hounds and asking other huntsmen which was the leader, how do you feel about sled dogs . People say the Alpha dog or leader is always in front because they have full control of the dogs behind it.

[Nettle]

I have loads of hunting experience but no sledding experience at all, so I'm afraid I can't answer that one.

I'd be interested to know how a dog could "control" from the front, though.

[mum24dog]

People say the Alpha dog or leader is always in front because they have full control of the dogs behind it.

If you want the lowdown on sled dogs, read Raymond and Lorna Coppinger's "Dogs".

This is what they say,
"On a 12 or 16 dog team, the leaders are usually paired.The leaders can be paired as males or females.Two female alpha dogs? A gog team with good depth has many leaders. It has alternatesthat the driver can substitute up frontto replace animals too tired to keep a winning pace.

Dogs are not wolves. Dogs are not running as a pack. A pack is about chasing something. Sled dogs are running because other dogs are running."

Pam

[mum24dog]

"Gog team"? It's late - you know what I mean.

Pam

[Gideon Love]

Mattie said, "Resource guarding his owner, resource guarding is based on fear not dominance, fear of loosing his owner. "

I wonder if this is why my pup peed on my (our) bed right after being neutered. I had removed his stairwell providing access to the bed because I was lifting him everywhere so he wouldn't jump and rip his stitches. I also took his little pod-like bed off my bed because he couldn't fit in it with that cone thing round his neck. And his toys were all missing too, I just removed them for some reason. So when he peed on my bed that night I wondered why; regression?? My aunt said dominance (she watches Cesar), but he didn't seem dominant about it. I read a lot about that afterward and thought what made the most sense was that suddenly this "event" happened, things were very different, and now he seemed to be getting kicked out of the bed so he was trying to restake his claim?

[Paul&Muttley]

This has been an interesting thread. I do think that the idea of dominance and the related concept of competition is largely a male-oriented thing, especially in cultures with Machismo as is prevalent in Cesar's home nation of Mexico. But I don't think it is right for women to bash men because many of them have been raised that way. In a different thread a woman protested the sexist comments that were supposedly made by Cesar about women not being good pack leaders and being caregivers instead. Sexism, racism, and other isms are becoming relics of another age, but I still see a lot of it, and often there seems to be a backlash from those who see themselves as having been on the short end of that schtick.

As I mentioned in another thread, people and dogs have certain personalities, and these traits may be hard-wired by brain chemistry and genetic makeup. Without being sexist in a negative way, it is surely probable that some of these traits are linked to gender, as there are also undeniable differences in physical attributes. For various historical reasons, probably men evolved to be more competitive, while women tend to be more cooperative. But these differences are narrowing in the more modern world.

Similarly, in the animal world, there are personality traits that determine the overall disposition of an individual, and their way of dealing with external stimuli from the environment. Some traits may be better suited to a more wild existence based on survival, while others are more suited to assimilating into a human family.

As for dogs running in packs, Muttley was apparently a pack leader in his previous existence as a "street dog", and he had a Rottie *****, as well as a JRT and a rather emaciated black Lab. I never had a chance to get to know the other dogs very well, but Muttley seems to have the demeanor to be a successful pack leader. He is smart and physically powerful, and he probably became used to taking charge (or asserting dominance). He never seemed aggressive toward me or other people, which may have been a learned survival technique to be able to bum treats from folks. And now that he has become used to living with me he remains aloof and independent, but I don't think he considers himself in charge.

I have always treated him with respect and kindness, except for that period of time I was instructed to coerce him into obedience by yanking on his choker chain and prong collar. That was simply ineffective and dangerous, and caused him to react with redirected aggression. He is still not well trained in a classical sense, but he is very reliable, stable, and well behaved in almost all situations. It is my belief that a dog, or any other animal including human, will express some sort of dominance when it is necessary for survival or in response to a real or perceived threat. But once an individual feels secure, there is no more need to assert this "dominance", and he or she can feel free to relax and enjoy life. But there may be some people and animals who just cannot do this.

[Nettle]

GideonLove, you are right that your dog was not showing "dominance" when he peed on your bed. He was desperately insecure at that moment, and he was saying "Hey, I am here too - smell me! Let me add my smell to yours" because beds smell very strongly of us to a dog and pee is communication to dogs - not the big insult it is to people.

Someone misinterpreting that and reacting by trying to "demote" the dog would have made him even more insecure, and precipitated even more inappropriate peeing, perhaps other unwanted actions too.

Paul I am sorry if I offended and you are quite right in what you say, but that is how these "pack leader" ideas originated, as a combination of misunderstood study and inaccurate observation allied to what people felt comfortable with - which is the concept of "dominance".

We are not dogs, and dogs know this. Therefore dogs have no interest in "being superior to" us. They want to feel good around us, but if we don't offer them what they perceive as good, they will take whatever action creates that "good". If that means growling when they feel threatened they will do so, and if it means sitting in a comfortable place they will do that.

It's a huge communication failure, and although many of us are trying to narrow the gap, every time dominance theory pops us, it has such appeal to human minds that it takes a fair bit of unravelling.

[Cracker]

I believe some people like to label unwanted behaviours as dominance because it is "simpler' than trying to figure out the motivations and reasons behind it because the dog cannot communicate with us in our own language.

Dominance does exist in all societies but a truly "dominant" dog is one who is confident and makes decisions to keep things stable in their environment. Fighting and forcing others to submit is simply not smart..injuries could occur and the energy required in maintaining this state of being would take much needed energy away from hunting and survival. It simply makes no evolutionary sense.

Dogs that fight, mark inappropriately or resource guard are insecure and anxious. Not the mark of a good leader. These are fear based behaviours and based on the fear of not being able to survive the long term stresses of life. It's like Maslov's hierarchy of needs..they cannot feel secure unless the basics are covered....

To the OP...maybe a copy of Jean Donaldson's "The Culture Clash" would be a nice gift for your friend, an opportunity to see the other side of dogs.