Julz - we dont 'do' pack leadership stuff here
Dogs are pack animals so it makes perfect sence to train your dog as if we were pack leaders. Treat your dog as if it were a member of your family then I really think that you're heading for trouble.
Dont do puppy pads..
why not?
In the older days it was called Paper Training... pup gets used to going in the same spot on a sheet of paper (or these days on an absorbant pad (much more hygenic than paper) later on when pup is old enough to be outside then the training was advanced to outside. In some cases the paper travelled with the pup... paper = pee site..... pup went on paper, earned him a "good boy" in time the paper wasnt needed, so pup now dog, knows to do his toilet outside.
Sorry i just cant get used to you guys calling it "potty training" as it's obvious no pottys are involved.... Unless im on the wrong site.
Info would be lovely. If im to remain here then I need this.... If i then decide this site isnt for me, then I shall delete my account and bid you farewell.
Dont do's
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
Re: Dont do's
Why teach a dog to go indoors on paper or a pad when you can cut that bit out and go straight to teaching the dog to go outside? Unless you live in an apartment I don't see how it's easier to teach the dog to go on paper or a pad than take them out in all honesty. If I had a pup in an apartment I'd use a litterbox filled with whatever it would be expected to toilet on outside. Dogs quickly get used to going on one surface and it can be difficult to get them to go on another and one piece of paper is very much like another.
As to whether it's called potty training, house training, house breaking...does it really matter?
And the pack leadership stuff like going through doors first, eating before your dog, not letting them on the couch etc is complete rubbish to be honest. What difference does any of that make to whether the dog views you as leader or not? Absolutely none. A dog that's allowed on the furniture and moves when told or whatever isn't a problem. Unless you're talking a different pack leadership but that's the sort of thing most people associate with pack leadership. Cesar Milan and all that sort of thing.
As to whether it's called potty training, house training, house breaking...does it really matter?
And the pack leadership stuff like going through doors first, eating before your dog, not letting them on the couch etc is complete rubbish to be honest. What difference does any of that make to whether the dog views you as leader or not? Absolutely none. A dog that's allowed on the furniture and moves when told or whatever isn't a problem. Unless you're talking a different pack leadership but that's the sort of thing most people associate with pack leadership. Cesar Milan and all that sort of thing.
-
runlikethewind
- Posts: 1166
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:48 pm
Re: Dont do's
Hi Julz
We're a great bunch on here and we're not into antagnostic posts. Everyone loves to help people in the new, improved way of training. Like Emmabeth will say, you can do it the harsher, old way, (no one is stopping you) and you will see results, but at what cost to your relationship with your dog? Or you can learn and stay around for a while and see why sometimes the old ways of doing things aren't always the best process and maybe, that given time, new ways of doing things happen and are shared - and some might realise they are better suited to the way they want to train their dogs. It's about learning. Dogs are not our enemies and they are not treated as such on this site. I do agree that the term potty training would suggest we all treat our dogs like babies and toddlers.. and that maybe a different term should be used.
You have asked for info: I can assure you it'll be coming! Some people are direct on here (they are with me and I'm still learning) Don't take offence so easily (easier said than done I know)
We're a great bunch on here and we're not into antagnostic posts. Everyone loves to help people in the new, improved way of training. Like Emmabeth will say, you can do it the harsher, old way, (no one is stopping you) and you will see results, but at what cost to your relationship with your dog? Or you can learn and stay around for a while and see why sometimes the old ways of doing things aren't always the best process and maybe, that given time, new ways of doing things happen and are shared - and some might realise they are better suited to the way they want to train their dogs. It's about learning. Dogs are not our enemies and they are not treated as such on this site. I do agree that the term potty training would suggest we all treat our dogs like babies and toddlers.. and that maybe a different term should be used.
You have asked for info: I can assure you it'll be coming! Some people are direct on here (they are with me and I'm still learning) Don't take offence so easily (easier said than done I know)
-
Fundog
- Posts: 3874
- Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:31 am
- Location: A little gambling town in the high desert
Re: Dont do's
Your statement that "treat a dog like a member of the family, and you're heading for trouble" is something I really do not understand, and completely disagree with. How does treating a dog like a family member cause problems? Afterall, even if you subscribe to "pack theory," a pack is still a "family." Treat a dog like a part of your pack, and it is still a member of your "family"-- but every family's dynamics are different, from philosophies on child-rearing to holiday traditions.
As for my own family: Our dogs live indoors with us, are members of our family (whether we call ourselves a "pack" or not is irrelevant, as we still treat the dogs the same as we always have, even when we subscribed to "pack theory."). They are allowed, even encouraged (!) up on the furniture and beds with us. We love, love, LOVE their company and want to include them in our activities as much as possible. We've learned to explore new hobbies, based upon things our dogs enjoy doing-- because life is more fun with dogs, so we like to do what THEY think is fun.
Regarding being the "boss" versus being sensitive to our dogs' feelings, wants, and desires: Recently we went through an issue with Dottie getting grumpy with us at bedtime potty. Through the combined thinking caps of everyone on this forum, we were able to figure out that Dottie wants to sleep with Mommy and Daddy, at least for the first few hours of the night. When we took her out for bedtime potty, we weren't letting her back into the bedroom with us. This made her nervous, insecure, and reluctant to go out for bedtime potty, knowing she would not be allowed back in with us. When we started allowing her back into the bedroom with us after bedtime potty, she became cooperative once again, and all grumpiness disappeared. This theory was confirmed just a couple of nights after realizing it, when as bedtime approached, and family members were coming and going from the bedroom, Dottie became more and more anxious, and could not relax. Once she realized she was not going to be given the boot, she calmed right down. She is now allowed to sleep with us, for at least the first half of the night. She gets up happily for bedtime potty. At the 2:00 am potty, she will then often go out to the living room and sleep with Annie until someone gets up for work or school.
Some folks would say, "Well see, you just gave in to the dog, and let the dog have her way. You are spoiling your dog, and letting her "dominate" you." We don't see it that way. By letting the dog have what makes her feel more secure, we are all able to go to bed without any fuss, and get some sleep. Having a dog we are not afraid is going to bite us is a very relaxing thing indeed! And gee, she's so soft and warm and sweet, we actually enjoy having her in the room with us.
Oh, and as for the term "potty:" to me it just means going pee and poop. When we say "potty training," we all know what it means, whether a toilet is involved or not. I guess if one wanted to be formal about it, we could dust off the term, "house breaking."
As for my own family: Our dogs live indoors with us, are members of our family (whether we call ourselves a "pack" or not is irrelevant, as we still treat the dogs the same as we always have, even when we subscribed to "pack theory."). They are allowed, even encouraged (!) up on the furniture and beds with us. We love, love, LOVE their company and want to include them in our activities as much as possible. We've learned to explore new hobbies, based upon things our dogs enjoy doing-- because life is more fun with dogs, so we like to do what THEY think is fun.
Regarding being the "boss" versus being sensitive to our dogs' feelings, wants, and desires: Recently we went through an issue with Dottie getting grumpy with us at bedtime potty. Through the combined thinking caps of everyone on this forum, we were able to figure out that Dottie wants to sleep with Mommy and Daddy, at least for the first few hours of the night. When we took her out for bedtime potty, we weren't letting her back into the bedroom with us. This made her nervous, insecure, and reluctant to go out for bedtime potty, knowing she would not be allowed back in with us. When we started allowing her back into the bedroom with us after bedtime potty, she became cooperative once again, and all grumpiness disappeared. This theory was confirmed just a couple of nights after realizing it, when as bedtime approached, and family members were coming and going from the bedroom, Dottie became more and more anxious, and could not relax. Once she realized she was not going to be given the boot, she calmed right down. She is now allowed to sleep with us, for at least the first half of the night. She gets up happily for bedtime potty. At the 2:00 am potty, she will then often go out to the living room and sleep with Annie until someone gets up for work or school.
Some folks would say, "Well see, you just gave in to the dog, and let the dog have her way. You are spoiling your dog, and letting her "dominate" you." We don't see it that way. By letting the dog have what makes her feel more secure, we are all able to go to bed without any fuss, and get some sleep. Having a dog we are not afraid is going to bite us is a very relaxing thing indeed! And gee, she's so soft and warm and sweet, we actually enjoy having her in the room with us.
Oh, and as for the term "potty:" to me it just means going pee and poop. When we say "potty training," we all know what it means, whether a toilet is involved or not. I guess if one wanted to be formal about it, we could dust off the term, "house breaking."
If an opportunity comes to you in life, say yes first, even if you don't know how to do it.
-
runlikethewind
- Posts: 1166
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:48 pm
Re: Dont do's
Julz - just out of interest, if you believe pack theory exists, do you believe that there should be a dominant pack leader? It might be useful if you had a read of the dominance article in the articles section. I think I am right in saying that the person who first introduced the term pack theory and dominance, later on his death bed... retracted it all and said he could find no evidence of this in feral dogs or human/dog families and that he was wrong - I need to find the actual facts of this as this man clearly has a lot to answer for!! It is also my understanding that wolves form packs but they have a breeding pair, no dominant alpha for example. It is also my understanding that feral dogs don't form packs at all - most are loners.
Re: Dont do's
Theres quite a bit of evidence out there that the modern dog is NOT a pack animal in the same way that a wolf is (and thats not a 'pack' the way pack theory describes a pack either).
Domestic dogs that do not live in a human home do not form packs - they occasionally group up in unrelated social groups when it is beneficial for them to do so. The moment it is NOT beneficial for them to do it (ie theres not enough food), they split up and do their own thing. If dogs were pack animals the way pack theory claims they are, feral dogs would go around in big tight knit packs at all times and would not split up but would starve to death when there wasnt enough food.
Doesnt happen.
Dogs ARE social, gregarious animals, just as humans are. Feral domestic dogs who behave as the 'leader' or 'alpha' as pack theory dog training describes.... are loners, who are hated and feared and generally die young of injuries caused by fighting.
Thats not a model id like to recreate in my group of dogs!
I have been treating my five dogs as family members (family members who dont speak, shed hair everywhere and can't cook!) for over ten years. The trouble hasn't come yet! As I write t his theres two on the bed, one on top of the crate by the bed, one under the bed and one 'minding' the doorway on the other side of the room.
'Pack theory' would tell me I should make all these dogs sleep elsewhere, at the very least on the floor and most would tell me to keep them downstairs seperately. Because the 'alpha' gets the best bed???? But what sort of social group (ANY social group, of any species that groups together in any way), sleeps with the most important member out alone and the rest in a safe group together... none that i can think of!
This isnt to say dogs do not need guidance, teaching, control, etc - but they need that in the same way we all need it at some point. We need a team leader to guide and instruct our work team. We need a teacher to teach us. We need a parent to raise us and teach us. We need friends too.. Dogs need all these things and that works very nicely.
Get domineering and confrontational (as pack theory suggests we must) and we get fear, avoidance and in some dogs, confrotnation and challenge back. Who wants that? Not me!
Go check out L David Mech, and also Coppingers work with feral dogs, and also read through the threads on pack theory and dominance that are on this forum (use the search function and theres at least one on dominance by me, in the articles section). They should explain more fully why we dont 'do' that.
As for paper training, fundog and runlikethewind have explained that pretty neatly. And use of the word 'potty', I say it because I find most Americans say it and though I am not American I have picked it up whilst running these forums. I say im going to the 'potty' myself though I am obviously referring to the toilet and not an actual potty.
I don't really see that it matters but if you don't like the term you are free to use any term you do prefer yourself.
Domestic dogs that do not live in a human home do not form packs - they occasionally group up in unrelated social groups when it is beneficial for them to do so. The moment it is NOT beneficial for them to do it (ie theres not enough food), they split up and do their own thing. If dogs were pack animals the way pack theory claims they are, feral dogs would go around in big tight knit packs at all times and would not split up but would starve to death when there wasnt enough food.
Doesnt happen.
Dogs ARE social, gregarious animals, just as humans are. Feral domestic dogs who behave as the 'leader' or 'alpha' as pack theory dog training describes.... are loners, who are hated and feared and generally die young of injuries caused by fighting.
Thats not a model id like to recreate in my group of dogs!
I have been treating my five dogs as family members (family members who dont speak, shed hair everywhere and can't cook!) for over ten years. The trouble hasn't come yet! As I write t his theres two on the bed, one on top of the crate by the bed, one under the bed and one 'minding' the doorway on the other side of the room.
'Pack theory' would tell me I should make all these dogs sleep elsewhere, at the very least on the floor and most would tell me to keep them downstairs seperately. Because the 'alpha' gets the best bed???? But what sort of social group (ANY social group, of any species that groups together in any way), sleeps with the most important member out alone and the rest in a safe group together... none that i can think of!
This isnt to say dogs do not need guidance, teaching, control, etc - but they need that in the same way we all need it at some point. We need a team leader to guide and instruct our work team. We need a teacher to teach us. We need a parent to raise us and teach us. We need friends too.. Dogs need all these things and that works very nicely.
Get domineering and confrontational (as pack theory suggests we must) and we get fear, avoidance and in some dogs, confrotnation and challenge back. Who wants that? Not me!
Go check out L David Mech, and also Coppingers work with feral dogs, and also read through the threads on pack theory and dominance that are on this forum (use the search function and theres at least one on dominance by me, in the articles section). They should explain more fully why we dont 'do' that.
As for paper training, fundog and runlikethewind have explained that pretty neatly. And use of the word 'potty', I say it because I find most Americans say it and though I am not American I have picked it up whilst running these forums. I say im going to the 'potty' myself though I am obviously referring to the toilet and not an actual potty.
I don't really see that it matters but if you don't like the term you are free to use any term you do prefer yourself.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Dont do's
Runlikethewind - This isnt an "antagnostic post" Im new here (less than a week) and if im to understand how you guys work, then I need to ask these questions.
I dont want to give out advice if it's the wrong advice for this forum, then i'll be accused of getting it wrong. I have had issues with my own dog who i've had for four years, since she was two... she isnt a rescue dog, she was my ex-bf's dog he didnt teach her anything bar house training.... she had issues with barking at random people couldnt walk on a lead, chased everything in sight, including my cats (who she now happily lives with) I stopped her from doing that with help from my then trainer, using tools that would probably scare you senceless, but it worked, she wasnt harmed in any way, she's a much nicer dog, happy and relaxed
What I mean by the sentence... "treat a dog like a member of the family, and you're heading for trouble" Ok.. you have a small dog... you baby it from the start, on your lap, on your bed, in your arms.... a year later it gets bolshy/aggressive when you or others try to do things...it bites...and not just "nips" proper bites..... you decide you have new furniture you dont want the dog on... suddenly the dog has gone from being a member of the family to being a dog.... and suddenly you expect the dog to know it;s place.... on the floor... trying to get dog on the floor results in dog becoming aggressive.... This is what i mean by that statement. In My Opinion (IMO) dogs should not be allowed on furniture until they know the difference. My dog is 6 now... she knows she's not allowed on the furniture.. UNLESS I invite her up.... and get down if A) she wants too, and B ) when I ask her too. She has a nice huge comfy bed in the livingroom and bedroom, so has a nice place to lie.
How can you disagree with something if you do not understand it??
"so we like to do what THEY think is fun." IME dogs think that chasing deer/horses/hares/rabbits etc is fun...... I know that's a bit pedantic, but you did say you do what the dogs think is fun..... Some dogs like to swim (mine doesnt, but hey) so you go swimming? in the sea? a lake?
Fundog - do you have Dottie on the bed or just in the bedroom?
FWIW - Tara sleeps in my bedroom along with the cats..but her bed is on the floor.... if she was to get up on the bed, aside from taking up most of the bed, one of the cats would slap her
Im not here to antagonise anyone.. yes to learn... but at the moment i have my ways they are not cruel or bad or anything else, yes possibly different, but we can all learn cant we?
I dont want to give out advice if it's the wrong advice for this forum, then i'll be accused of getting it wrong. I have had issues with my own dog who i've had for four years, since she was two... she isnt a rescue dog, she was my ex-bf's dog he didnt teach her anything bar house training.... she had issues with barking at random people couldnt walk on a lead, chased everything in sight, including my cats (who she now happily lives with) I stopped her from doing that with help from my then trainer, using tools that would probably scare you senceless, but it worked, she wasnt harmed in any way, she's a much nicer dog, happy and relaxed
What I mean by the sentence... "treat a dog like a member of the family, and you're heading for trouble" Ok.. you have a small dog... you baby it from the start, on your lap, on your bed, in your arms.... a year later it gets bolshy/aggressive when you or others try to do things...it bites...and not just "nips" proper bites..... you decide you have new furniture you dont want the dog on... suddenly the dog has gone from being a member of the family to being a dog.... and suddenly you expect the dog to know it;s place.... on the floor... trying to get dog on the floor results in dog becoming aggressive.... This is what i mean by that statement. In My Opinion (IMO) dogs should not be allowed on furniture until they know the difference. My dog is 6 now... she knows she's not allowed on the furniture.. UNLESS I invite her up.... and get down if A) she wants too, and B ) when I ask her too. She has a nice huge comfy bed in the livingroom and bedroom, so has a nice place to lie.
How can you disagree with something if you do not understand it??
"so we like to do what THEY think is fun." IME dogs think that chasing deer/horses/hares/rabbits etc is fun...... I know that's a bit pedantic, but you did say you do what the dogs think is fun.....
Some dogs like to swim (mine doesnt, but hey) so you go swimming? in the sea? a lake? Fundog - do you have Dottie on the bed or just in the bedroom?
FWIW - Tara sleeps in my bedroom along with the cats..but her bed is on the floor.... if she was to get up on the bed, aside from taking up most of the bed, one of the cats would slap her
Im not here to antagonise anyone.. yes to learn... but at the moment i have my ways they are not cruel or bad or anything else, yes possibly different, but we can all learn cant we?
-
runlikethewind
- Posts: 1166
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:48 pm
Re: Dont do's
Hi Julz
I took your post as antagnostic becase you said "I'll delete my account and bid you farewell' and envisaged a dramatic flurry of an exit, never to be seen again - that is not how this forum works. Everyone tries to be much friendlier.
I would be interested in knowing what methods your trainer used on your dog to :
stop barking at strangers
walk nicely on lead
stop cat chasing - I have that problem.
The idea is that harsher methods may work for some dogs who are not sensitive or fearful and they don't affect them (but how can we truly know that what you are about to do will not affect them and then it is too late) The majority of behaviours like barking at strangers is as a result of fear so for example, if you added a bottle full of pebbles to this situation, your dog is not only fearful of people and then becomes fearful of you trying to interupt this with a loud noise. Double fear!
I took your post as antagnostic becase you said "I'll delete my account and bid you farewell' and envisaged a dramatic flurry of an exit, never to be seen again - that is not how this forum works. Everyone tries to be much friendlier.
I would be interested in knowing what methods your trainer used on your dog to :
stop barking at strangers
walk nicely on lead
stop cat chasing - I have that problem.
The idea is that harsher methods may work for some dogs who are not sensitive or fearful and they don't affect them (but how can we truly know that what you are about to do will not affect them and then it is too late) The majority of behaviours like barking at strangers is as a result of fear so for example, if you added a bottle full of pebbles to this situation, your dog is not only fearful of people and then becomes fearful of you trying to interupt this with a loud noise. Double fear!
-
runlikethewind
- Posts: 1166
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:48 pm
-
ladybug1802
- Posts: 1991
- Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:39 am
- Location: Surrey
Re: Dont do's
Julz.....there are different ideas of 'pack leadership', in my mkind anyway. There is the ideas that Cesar Milan advocates, which involves the alpha roll etc, which is basically bullying your dog. I mean sure, it may 'teach' the dog to not do whatever it was doing to warrant being rolled, but it will just learn out of fear mainlyl. This may not affect some dogs, but if someone started doing things like that with my dog, who can be fearful with strangers, andn this can go to aggression, he would become a very aggressive dog - I have no doubt of it.
But then there are other views of 'pack leadership' which I understand, such as providing a safe environment for the dog, with rules and boundaries that they understand but without conforontation. So for example, if you do let your dog on furniture, the dog will get off furniture when asked.
My dog is very much a member of the family, and I dont see the point in having a dog if this is not going to be the case. I know of a family who have 3 dogs, but the dogs are not allowed in the house....they are kept in the large utility room (big room by theback door) all the time. I think this is a shame.....why have 3 dogs and keep them separate al the time? But although my dog is a member of my family, gets cuddles a lot, played with a lot etc he isnt allowed upstairs. He comes up when invited, but other than that he stays downstairs.....this is not for any reason other than the fact that I would rather him stay downstairs so I dont get dog hair upstairs, and also I keep my pet stuff that I sell in my spare room, so would rather than didnt get rummaged through by a nisey little nose! I dont personally like my dogs being on the bed as dont like dog hair being on my bed linen, but contrastingly would love to have him on the bed for a cuddle sometimes.....but wont invite him up as dont want to confuse him!
I use the term 'house training' rather than 'potty training' but at the end of the day, we all know what it means, so dont see it as a big deal....but you can use whatever term you prefer.
Dont delete your account......I can vouch for the fact that you get some great advice on here. It has hugely helped my boy...well it has helped MY approach to dealing with this fear of strangers and people coming to the house, and in turn has helped him a lot!
But then there are other views of 'pack leadership' which I understand, such as providing a safe environment for the dog, with rules and boundaries that they understand but without conforontation. So for example, if you do let your dog on furniture, the dog will get off furniture when asked.
My dog is very much a member of the family, and I dont see the point in having a dog if this is not going to be the case. I know of a family who have 3 dogs, but the dogs are not allowed in the house....they are kept in the large utility room (big room by theback door) all the time. I think this is a shame.....why have 3 dogs and keep them separate al the time? But although my dog is a member of my family, gets cuddles a lot, played with a lot etc he isnt allowed upstairs. He comes up when invited, but other than that he stays downstairs.....this is not for any reason other than the fact that I would rather him stay downstairs so I dont get dog hair upstairs, and also I keep my pet stuff that I sell in my spare room, so would rather than didnt get rummaged through by a nisey little nose! I dont personally like my dogs being on the bed as dont like dog hair being on my bed linen, but contrastingly would love to have him on the bed for a cuddle sometimes.....but wont invite him up as dont want to confuse him!
I use the term 'house training' rather than 'potty training' but at the end of the day, we all know what it means, so dont see it as a big deal....but you can use whatever term you prefer.
Dont delete your account......I can vouch for the fact that you get some great advice on here. It has hugely helped my boy...well it has helped MY approach to dealing with this fear of strangers and people coming to the house, and in turn has helped him a lot!
Re: Dont do's
Just to pick up on another point... whilst we firmly believe dogs are members of the family and we ought to respect them, listen to them etc etc - that does not and never has equated (as far as the advice given on here goes) to pandering to and spoiling a dog by 'babying' it at all!
If you read through some more posts you will find that where the relationship is unhealthy between a dog and a human, where the dog is needy adn dependant, where the human is not allowing the dog to be a dog, we say so! and we will advise that the person rebalances things in a variety of ways. We are constantly telling people with small dogs that they have legs and can use them so don't carry them around,t hat they can go for walks and must do so, that a little b it of rain or snow is not a reason to hole up inside for the entire winter.... etc etc!
Treating a dog like a member of the family is just that - I wouldnt prioritise or 'baby' any one member of my family over and above the others in an inappropriate way, regardless of whether they are canine or human (though canines outweigh humans 5:2 here!).
I think you also misread what was said about doing the things your dog finds fun. That doesnt mean allow your dog to chase stock or bark its head off at the neighbours... it means understanding what your dog enjoys and finding ways to fulfill that, rather than attempting to deny them the opportunity to do things, and wondering why behaviour 'leaks' out through the cracks.
I know Fundogs dogs enjoy tracking birds so she finds ways for them to do that appropriately (ie, safely, on a long line). Some of my dogs very much enjoy shredding and ripping and 'killing' things, so I provide them with things they may shred/rip/kill so they have an outlet for that without ripping up my stuff!
If you read through some more posts you will find that where the relationship is unhealthy between a dog and a human, where the dog is needy adn dependant, where the human is not allowing the dog to be a dog, we say so! and we will advise that the person rebalances things in a variety of ways. We are constantly telling people with small dogs that they have legs and can use them so don't carry them around,t hat they can go for walks and must do so, that a little b it of rain or snow is not a reason to hole up inside for the entire winter.... etc etc!
Treating a dog like a member of the family is just that - I wouldnt prioritise or 'baby' any one member of my family over and above the others in an inappropriate way, regardless of whether they are canine or human (though canines outweigh humans 5:2 here!).
I think you also misread what was said about doing the things your dog finds fun. That doesnt mean allow your dog to chase stock or bark its head off at the neighbours... it means understanding what your dog enjoys and finding ways to fulfill that, rather than attempting to deny them the opportunity to do things, and wondering why behaviour 'leaks' out through the cracks.
I know Fundogs dogs enjoy tracking birds so she finds ways for them to do that appropriately (ie, safely, on a long line). Some of my dogs very much enjoy shredding and ripping and 'killing' things, so I provide them with things they may shred/rip/kill so they have an outlet for that without ripping up my stuff!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Dont do's
I am going to PM runlikethewind, because A) she's asked on how i stopped my dog from doing this. and B ) i dont want it to be taken as general advice for anyone reading.
Im not going to get in a huff and delete my account never to be seen again.... it's possible to learn new tricks so to speak and get on.. maybe even make new friends - who knows..
Im not going to get in a huff and delete my account never to be seen again.... it's possible to learn new tricks so to speak
and get on.. maybe even make new friends - who knows.. 
Re: Dont do's
Thank you for letting us know your concerns, Julz, so we can explain. 
Potty-training - I use this as it is an American term and so suits our large American readership, is mildly amusing, not obscene, easily understood and informal. Being English I use the term "house-training" among my UK clients, but that might not carry so well over the Pond. I don't use terms like "breaking" because they sound violent, and being a certain type of English person, I could not possibly use the term "toilet" although I don't mind others using that term at all (fellow Limeys will understand 
).
Pack and leadership - sadly these terms have been corrupted in dog-training terms by some widespread and erroneous conclusions of decades ago, which have since been replaced among the enlightened by more accurate thinking on dog behaviour. Sadly, large pockets of "resistance" still exist in the form of people who want to bully dogs/be worshipped as gods by them. The rest has been explained by Emmabeth and also in the pinned thread in "Articles" about dogs taking over the world.
We don't recommend using pee pads because it is all too easy to confuse a dog and prolong the house/potty/lavatory training because first the dog learns to empty itself indoors and it's okay, then suddenly it isn't. As the greater part of our posts come from people who have taken in rescue dogs with issues, or puppy-farm puppies that have been kept in their own filth, we need to help them get their dogs clean in the house without any room for confusion.
We also don't recommend daipers or body-belts on dogs because we consider them abusive. We don't support the use of any "training aid" that has the potential to cause fear, pain distress or confusion.
We do support the shameless manipulation of circumstances to get the dog to do what we want, and then rewarding it (us too - there is a lot of cyber wine, cake and chocolate on this Board. If you are dieting, we do flowers.)
We do support dogs being well-exercised, and allowed to display natural behaviour under controlled circumstances. Some of us are closer to the wire than others.
How people live with their dogs vis-a-vis having them on furniture/beds/whatever, is their choice. A dog can be very much indulged and still be well-behaved. We accept that different individuals and different cultures have different ideas of how dogs should be kept, and as long as that treatment is not abusive or unreasonable, we adapt our advice to suit. We are very firm however about reminding people that dogs are dogs and not fluffy toys or child substitutes, and should be treated like the wonderful animals they are, not as human emotional props.
Hope that helps.
Potty-training - I use this as it is an American term and so suits our large American readership, is mildly amusing, not obscene, easily understood and informal. Being English I use the term "house-training" among my UK clients, but that might not carry so well over the Pond. I don't use terms like "breaking" because they sound violent, and being a certain type of English person,
I could not possibly use the term "toilet" although I don't mind others using that term at all (fellow Limeys will understand ).Pack and leadership - sadly these terms have been corrupted in dog-training terms by some widespread and erroneous conclusions of decades ago, which have since been replaced among the enlightened by more accurate thinking on dog behaviour. Sadly, large pockets of "resistance" still exist
in the form of people who want to bully dogs/be worshipped as gods by them. The rest has been explained by Emmabeth and also in the pinned thread in "Articles" about dogs taking over the world.We don't recommend using pee pads because it is all too easy to confuse a dog and prolong the house/potty/lavatory
training because first the dog learns to empty itself indoors and it's okay, then suddenly it isn't. As the greater part of our posts come from people who have taken in rescue dogs with issues, or puppy-farm puppies that have been kept in their own filth, we need to help them get their dogs clean in the house without any room for confusion.We also don't recommend daipers or body-belts on dogs because we consider them abusive. We don't support the use of any "training aid" that has the potential to cause fear, pain distress or confusion.
We do support the shameless manipulation of circumstances to get the dog to do what we want, and then rewarding it (us too - there is a lot of cyber wine, cake and chocolate on this Board. If you are dieting, we do flowers.)
We do support dogs being well-exercised, and allowed to display natural behaviour under controlled circumstances. Some of us are closer to the wire than others.
How people live with their dogs vis-a-vis having them on furniture/beds/whatever, is their choice. A dog can be very much indulged and still be well-behaved. We accept that different individuals and different cultures have different ideas of how dogs should be kept, and as long as that treatment is not abusive or unreasonable, we adapt our advice to suit. We are very firm however about reminding people that dogs are dogs and not fluffy toys or child substitutes, and should be treated like the wonderful animals they are, not as human emotional props.
Hope that helps.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
-
ladybug1802
- Posts: 1991
- Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:39 am
- Location: Surrey
Re: Dont do's
Well said Nettle!!
Re: Dont do's
Yeah, well said ................ is there a thumbsup icon on this board? och a smiley will do...ladybug1802 wrote:Well said Nettle!!
