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I am shocked an appalled in equal measure in what I have seen on the web lately (on other forums) regarding the use of prong collars and e-collars.
I have come across two independant situations where dog 'trainers' have recommended the use of thses collars on young puppies. The first was recommended to a guy who had two pups one five months and one three months, and the e-collar was recommended to help him make them walk to heel and also with recall training. The second example is much worse where a guy put a prong collar on a six month old pup to 'correct' her when she bit / mouthed at him.
What suprised me even more is that although some people on the forums in question were as appalled as myself, and equal number were not. I find this very worrying and also quite saddening. I have to add that on both of these occassions the people in question were based in the USA. Now obviously this could be merely coincidence and I certainily would not wish to offend any of the many Americans who use this forum regularly, but I was wondering if there is a slightly different attitude to these devices across the pond, or do people know of the same thing here in the UK?
Finally, the other thing that really, really, gets me mad here is that these people have been TOLD to use these collars by 'trainers' . Now of course they still make their own decision to follow this advice, but I do feel very strongly that people are of course going to be very strongly influenced by people who set themselves up as experts. Are dog trainer's not licensed or regulated in some way, both here and in the USA?
The main problem with these collars is they are not used as they should be, even though, I don't think I would put one on my dogs.
I have seen a beautiful black GSD ruined by an e collar, his owners used to zap him every time he did something that they didn't want and turned him into a nervous, aggressive dog. In the end he was pts because of aggression
This is normal in the USA especially as there is an ex police dog handler promoting the e collars and selling them. He puts them round the stomach of Yorkies because they don't fit round the neck
Hi I am new to the forum, I am a positive trainer and Registered Veterinary Technician (RVT), and a member of the No Shock Coalition. It was started by members of the APDT (Assoc. of Pet Dog Trainers) who were bothered by the proliferation of shock collar trainers in the membership and on the lists. The APDT was originally started to promote "dog-friendly" methods and to help anyone who wanted educational opportunities to learn more positive methods. Somehow the shock collar people started to join, but not to learn positive methods but to promote their agenda. www.trulydogfriendly.com was another creation from this. I think that some Americans are a "want it yesterday" bunch and shock collars provide that, especially with Cesar Millan using them on his show (the owner suffered a redirected bite because of it), and Fred Hassen and his Sit Means Sit bunch. He has flooded YouTube with his videos, and lay people unfamiliar with canine body language sees it and goes "wow". Not realizing the dogs are displaying signs of stress and anxiety. There is a great article on the IAABC website about shock collars. You can find it at
I am glad that Victoria is on the air, I am not a big Cesar fan, to me the "Dog Whisperer" is Paul Owens, whose book is called the Dog Whisperer, Cesar is more the "Dog Shouter". Although he has brought to light the importance of owners taking responsibility of there dogs. I look forward to this forum and hope that I can contribute worthwhile information.
Hi there mothergrizzly60 and welcome to the forum! I have been reading your posts and find what you have to say very interesting, its also nice to hear that you are a 'cross over' trainer as it good to know that peope are prepared to change their views by conisidering the evidence and researching different methods and opinions.
I very much like your description of Cesar Milan as the dog 'shouter' and would very much agree with it. As you say its probably down to the likes of him that prong collars and e-collars are so widely used in the US.
While holding no brief for the above devices, I do get exasperated with "research" being done on rats and captive wolves that is then extrapolated to dogs!
Owdb1tch wrote:While holding no brief for the above devices, I do get exasperated with "research" being done on rats and captive wolves that is then extrapolated to dogs!
OR it doesn't hurt me so it won't hurt my dog, how do they know if it hurts their dog or not?
Owdb1tch wrote:While holding no brief for the above devices, I do get exasperated with "research" being done on rats and captive wolves that is then extrapolated to dogs!
OR it doesn't hurt me so it won't hurt my dog, how do they know if it hurts their dog or not?
It's only 20 years or so that dogs have been given painkillers after surgery - prior to that, vets were taught that animals did not feel pain in the same way as humans so did not need them.
Biology students in the '70s were taught animals hardly felt pain, and in the early part of the C20, medical students dissected live animals without any form of anaesthesia because animals were supposed not to feel pain at all.
Scary stuff - eh - but as recently as the 1970s, CHILDREN were not given painkillers after surgery because THEY apparantly didn't feel pain in the same way as adults!!!
Very scary. We have come a long way with our ideas and treatments of animals thank goodness.
One of my uncles trained as a vet but his mother made him promise to take care of the farm and his 2 sisters so he didn't practice. He was born in the first 10 years of the 20th century. The local vets always called him out if there was a sick cow that they didn't know what was wrong and he taught them a lot. For as long as I can remember, he always treated his animal for pain. He knew his cows as individuals and knew there was something wrong by just looking at them.
mothergrizzly60 wrote:the No Shock Coalition. It was started by members of the APDT (Assoc. of Pet Dog Trainers) who were bothered by the proliferation of shock collar trainers in the membership and on the lists. The APDT was originally started to promote "dog-friendly" methods and to help anyone who wanted educational opportunities to learn more positive methods. Somehow the shock collar people started to join, but not to learn positive methods but to promote their agenda. www.trulydogfriendly.com was another creation from this. I think that some Americans are a "want it yesterday" bunch and shock collars provide that
I am a member of a US Board and that is exactly the impression I get - no patience to get a better outcome by positive means and no idea that all they are doing is suppressing the behaviour, not curing it.
I cannot understand the number of people on there who are using a clicker one minute and a shock or prong collar the next. In one way I have more respect for people who are open users of punishment in training and I guess that could be less confusing for the dog too, although not to be advocated, of course.
They really don't understand what positive training means. It isn't a case of rewarding after punishment.
Even Suzanne Clothier who is apparently generally considered one of the good guys has an article she wrote on her web site in favour of the use of prong collars.
Mixed messages all round.
I use a prong collar and they are much better than choke collar. They aren't cruel when you know how to use it properly. The thing you guys don't know about E-collar, it has two options, one is to vibrate or to give an electric shock. It is very effective on deaf dogs when you are trying to get their attention through vibration. Now do you think it is cruel? I think absoutely no.
Choke chains are deadly and shouldn't be used on a dog but unfortunately pet shops and vets still sell them without any instructions on how to use them. A lot of heath problems can develop from these choke chains.
Prong collars are in the same league as a choke chain, shouldn't be used. Yes I do know how to use one properly, I don't believe in condeming anything if I don't know how to use them or how they work. If the weren't cruel why do some trainers put rubber covers on the prongs?
The e collar is the worst of the lot, yes, again I know how to use one and have seen someone abusing one. I don't have a problem when they are on vibration, many of the SAR dogs at the WTC had them on so their handler could communicate with them. It is using them for training that I have problems with, people use them as a quick fix. They are unnessary for normal training, better results can be achieved with positive methods.
I do agree with you about e collar. I'm not a big fan of it either, but it can be useful on some dogs. People who don't know how to use their tools properly can end up hurting or killing the dog. If you really honor your vets' opinion, why do they sell choke collars? I don't like choke collar either, but some trainers still use it.
You might know how to use, but do you think other people know how to use it too? The prong collar is supposed to held right behind their ears. It is not supposed to be on the lower part of the neck. It is supposed to give a light correction when a dog pull. I do have a prong collar sitting at home, but I haven't used it in a long time. I taught my dog through motionval training with food and toys all on his flat collar.
Vets do very little behaviour or training work when they are training, same as with nutrition, they have to learn this the hard way. For many years it was normal to have a choke chain on your dog and people got used to seeing them in pet shops and vets. Now many owners are learning differently and they are not used as much. Vets still need to catch up with training which I am trying to do with my vets My vets do listen to me when I talk behaviour or training and they no longer sell these in this practice.
Cesar Millar has a collar that works right behind the ears as well because that is a very sensitive area for a dog and they feel things a lot more there.
I never walk my dogs on a collar, not even a flat collar because every gadget can do a lot of damage to a dog, the harness seems to do less damage when misused.
I am not having a go at you LmJanes, but how do you know that you are giving a light correction?
As one who use to use prong collars and choke chains, they cause pain, and injury. In a sick way the prong collar may be technically "safer" but they should be avoided as should choke chains.
Whether you intend to give a "correction" or not the prong collar gives one by virtue of its design and how it is suppose to work. When I used them over 10 years ago I regularly heard dogs yelp with their application. The trainer I use to apprentice under would tell me and the clients "oh, that's just from surprise, it's not really hurting them", well I now know that it isn't just "surprise" it is from the surprise of the pain.
And they are not that effective, I was yanked off my feet once by a dog wearing a prong, and so have others, so they do not stop dogs from pulling. I regularly see people yanking on them as they would a choke chain so as to inflict a harsher correction.
They have NO place in Positive training. There are so many alternatives out there to stop pulling, there is no need for them, and they especially should not be used with aggressive or fearful dogs. In fact, I know that its use contributed to my Rotties dog aggression, from his point of view this bad thing happened around his neck when ever dogs were present.
The reasoning behind them is faulty, many trainers say the prong recreates the "scruffy" dogs do to each other-we now know that reasoning is incorrect, dogs do not regularly "scruff" each other in that manner. The throat is a sensitive area, and a "kill" zone. Someone or something grabs you by the throat in a manner that causes pain and/or suffocation, and you immediately fear for your life and fight. It is very easy to cause a dog to develop aggression and/or fear because of these collars (shock too). I know, mine did-it took months of counter conditioning, a head collar, and lots of reinforcement for calm behavior to get my Rottie's aggression under control.
I agree with emmabeth, this forum is for Positive methods, and a prong collar is not positive. People still use and recommend them because of many reasons, ignorance is one of them, not wanting to admit they may be wrong and are actually hurting the animals they claim to love is another-that one was mine. But I did come around.
I will close with an excerpt from the book "The Complete Idiots Guide to Positive Dog Training", second edition, copyright 2005 by Pamela Dennison (author.)
Page 9: "The most notable role models for positive methods are the trainers at SeaWorld parks. They train a killer whale to stay still for dental work without Novocain, to urinate on cue into a paper cup, to allow blood to be drawn, and many other behaviors needed for animal husbandry. Use punishment on these animals and you'll see the need for new trainers increase because all of the trainers will be dead. So they use positive training by necessity. It only takes nine months to train a whale, including name recognition, "Come" on cue, and daily animal husbandry (does your dog allow grooming?), eye contact, not eating the trainer or any other animals – even prey –plus all of the behaviors needed for the show."
Page 10: "Why some people seem to think that a 25-pound Sheltie needs more punishment than an 8,000-pound killer whale at SeaWorld is beyond me."
It is beyond me as well.
"Who are we to say you must or I will hurt you."
Monty Roberts
My vets do listen to me when I talk behaviour or training and they no longer sell these in this practice.